Indigenous Inclusion and Well-Being in the Federal Public Service (IRA1-V73)

Transcript: Indigenous Inclusion and Well-Being in the Federal Public Service

[00:00:00 The CSPS logo appears onscreen.]

[00:00:06 The screen fades to Lorenzo Ieraci.]

Lorenzo Ieraci (Public Services and Procurement Canada): Good afternoon and welcome to this Indigenous learning event, entitled, "Indigenous Inclusion and Well-Being in the Federal Public Service." Thank you for joining us today.

My name is Lorenzo Ieraci and I am the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Policy, Planning and Communications Branch at Public Services and Procurement Canada. I will be your session moderator today and I am very pleased to support the Canada School of Public Service by moderating this event.

Let me start by acknowledging that the land from which I am talking to you is located in Ottawa on the traditional territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin Nation, whose presence here reaches back to time immemorial. I acknowledge and give thanks for the land on which we live and work, and to the people who have cared for it.

Some of you are joining us today from different parts of the country, and I encourage you to take a moment to recognize and acknowledge the territory you are on.

I would also like to mention that some of the topics discussed in the panel today may evoke an emotional response. These discussions are not intended to hurt or to harm, but rather are intended to provide context and to raise awareness about the importance of cultural competency. It is now my pleasure to introduce Elder Verna McGregor.

[00:01:32 Elder Verna Mcgregor is shown.]

Elder Verna is from the Algonquin community of Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg. She is firmly grounded in her community and Nation as a member of the group of traditional grandmothers, or Kokomisag, and Elders. Their role includes promoting the retention of the Algonquin language and culture, which is so important when addressing community issues and connections to the land. I would now like to turn to Elder Verna.

Elder Verna Mcgregor (Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg): Miigwech, thank you, Thank you. Hello, everybody (inaudible). Hello everyone. I say. I thank you for acknowledging our traditional lands, and I'm very honoured to be here today to talk about Indigenous retention, inclusion and well-being, which is, I think is important because, just really quickly, too, I did start off my career, I have a varied career in the public service, and this is many moons ago in the late 80's, and because of also issues in the workplace, I didn't stay in the public service very long. I ended up leaving. I only stayed for maybe a year. And back then too as well, there wasn't the policy that they had today in terms of addressing racism, and in the workplace. Some what I did was I left the public service, but I did come back intermittently throughout the years. And here I am talking to the School of Public Service, so very honoured to do that.

Why is inclusion so important? From my thinking, too, I was just talking before coming here, even the importance of the language. I have been working on the language recently, even in translation, and for us as Algonquin, we're known as still (inaudible). But I just mentioned an important observation beforehand, even the word water, for us, we have three pages full of a description in our lexicon describing water, and because the languages are very expressive and they carry a lot of knowledge, and today they would call that traditional knowledge. So, today too, we're dealing with climate change, we're dealing with species extinction, so now, there is also now a great interest in traditional knowledge and people, and it was foretold by our ancestors that there would be a seeking of knowledge in the times we're in. So, here we are today too, as well. So, I think too from my perspective, I think that's why Indigenous retention, inclusion and well-being is so important. And I think too as well, I think the public service too has also benefited from bringing in also and becoming aware of the culture and knowledge too. So, I think we're on a journey together. Going back to, part of my background has been in banking, and going back to the bank, one of the mottos is if we have an issue we want to hear about it. Why did they do that, is they want it to hear about complaints? Because the average person, 95% of the population, instead of voicing their concern, they go away. It's only 5% back then that actually raised an issue or concern. But, and so for the bank, that translates into lost customers, but today too, we're talking about retention. So, dealing with the issue of retention, inclusion and well-being also is important today, especially too we're one of the lowest in terms of representation in the public service. So, on that note, I'm honoured to say an opening Miigwech.

(Speaks in Indigenous language)

For those of you who have seen me before, I say Miigwech four times to honour the four directions, the four seasons, the four colours of people on this earth, the four elements, specifically the earth, the water, the fire, the air, because without them, we wouldn't have life here on Mother Earth. And why we call earth, "Mother Earth," is that, like a mother, she provides everything here for our well-being to have a good life here. So, and one of the biggest teachings too, again, and I talk about the four colours of people, is that we were all given the instructions to be caretakers of the earth. And one of the biggest things with diversity is regardless of the colours of our skin, you had the white, yellow, red and black people, regardless of our backgrounds, the colours of our skin, our beliefs, our differences in language, our histories, what binds us together, whether we like it or not, is that we share the earth and the elements, the water, the fire, the air. So, because again, we're 72% water in our bodies. Without water, we wouldn't survive. And with the air, COVID was teaching us that how the air connects all of us. The fire, again, that's the internal fire of the earth, the fire of the sun that makes things grow, and your internal fire for having your journey here.

And so, I honour your discussion today for the public service because, again, everything is interconnected and the public service, for a public servant, you're looking after also too as well the well-being of the collective through also your legislation and policy. So, I look forward to listening to the discussion, so Miigwech everybody and have a good discussion. Miigwech, thank you, thank you.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you, Elder Verna for the opening prayer and for the opening words. They're greatly appreciated, and I think they set us up well for the conversation and discussion that we will be having today. You touched on a number of things, including the fact that we are all caretakers of the earth and the elements, and obviously the public service has an important role to play. As you noted, we do have some challenges as well as opportunities, including in areas like representation in a number of areas. So, thank you for the opening prayer and for the opening words. They are greatly appreciated.

Elder Verna Mcgregor: Miigwech, thank you.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Merci. So, at this point in time, of course, I want to say once again, welcome and thank you for joining us today with our virtual panelists, where we are going to be having the event, again, today on the Indigenous Inclusion and Well-Being in the Federal Public Service. At this point in time, I want to turn towards our distinguished and esteemed panelists to give them the opportunity to introduce themselves. We have three people who are joining us today.

[00:10:10 Michael Mills, Iliana Lauriston, and Dylan Jenkins are shown in separate video chat panels.]

So, I will give them the opportunity to briefly introduce themselves and I will start with Michael Mills.

Michael Mills (Public Services and Procurement Canada): Thanks, Lorenzo. Hi, I am Michael Mills. I'm the Associate Deputy Minister with Public Services and Procurement Canada. I have been with the Government of Canada for well over 25 years now, many different places. I'm very proud to be the Champion of Reconciliation at PSPC and kind of work with our Indigenous employees, and more broadly to try and support reconciliation activities on the base of PSPC and the Government of Canada. I am Métis and I am from western Canada. Very proud to have been born in Manitoba, and in the homeland of the Métis and to represent Métis with the federal government.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Great. Thank you very much, Michael. Thank you for being with us today.

Next, I will probably turn to Iliana to give her the opportunity to introduce herself. Iliana?

Iliana Lauriston (Service Canada): Thank you very much. So, I'm Iliana Lauriston. I am a Senior Mental Health Advisor for Service Canada, but I have been working for the federal government for a good 17 years now in various departments. And, I've really had a long career. So, it's always difficult to summarize my career. As the years go by. So, I started out in traditional medicine and psychotherapy. With time, I said to myself, "Well, but I want to become a nurse." All of this, often, it ties it all together. So, I've been working in mental health for quite a long time. And then, well, before that, before working for the federal government for 17 years, I worked for 10 years in several Indigenous communities across Canada. I started in the Northwest Territories. It was a big surprise for me, very disorienting. So, I worked with the Dene there, which I loved, several communities, with the Inuvialuit in the North… of the Northwest Territories. I also came to know the Cree in northern Quebec and finally the Mohawks here in Montréal. And the Mohawks… So, I work and live and play on unceded Mohawk territory as I pass through Montréal. So, that was a big dream for me. I have always felt a sense of belonging and I have always felt close to Indigenous communities. So, it was a dream of mine to one day go and work in those communities. I didn't know how I was going to do this, but it just happened by chance and I'm glad I did it. So, there you have it.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Great. Thank you so much, Iliana, for sharing with us today and for being with us this afternoon for this very, very special event. Thank you very much.

Last but certainly not least, we will turn to our good colleague Dylan to give him the opportunity to introduce himself as well. Dylan?

Dylan Jenkins (National Research Council Canada): Miigwech. Dylan Jenkins, (inaudible), North Bay, Ontario, (inaudible). My name is Dylan Jenkins. I'm Bear Clan. I am Cree Anishinaabe. I have been in the public service now for, into my 25^th year. I'm currently the Manager of the Inclusive Innovation Team as we're setting up an inclusive innovation hub at the National Research Council, it's the Industrial Research Assistance Program. So, I have always been involved in, whether from the corner of my desk, or in positions that I've had within government to work with people and connect people with purpose, to empower people to be their own hero, and to move towards more humanized public service and more human-centric, resilience-based approach to working together. And I have been integrating my Indigenous teachings from my Elders, and I've worked with different Elders from all kinds of different Nations to bring an understanding as a two-sprit knowledge keeper into the public service, and so I enjoy incorporating, or I say braiding, my experiences as an Indigenous person, as Cree Anishinaabe, and also having my name, as you can tell by my name, the Welsh and the Scottish roots as well, and to make Canada a better place, and it comes from a place of shared understanding, and but we all have our truths to be shared and many still to be shared, and it's an honour to be in this circle with everyone today. Chi Miigwech.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you very much, Dylan. Thank you to all three of you for introducing yourselves as well as for taking the time to be with us this afternoon for this important discussion and this important panel on Indigenous Inclusion and Well-Being in the Federal Public Service. Obviously, a number of things that you've already started to touch upon as part of the introduction. So, to really kind of get this going, why don't we start with some of the questions that we have, where we're looking to be able to get your perspectives, your views, your inputs, your feedback on a couple of things. So, Dylan, maybe I can start the first question off with you. You talked about braiding some of the activities in, in terms of Indigenous culture and Indigenous history, in terms of the work that is being done. So, the first question that I think we'd like to be able to discuss is how can organizations adopt people-centric or centered approaches that truly reflect Indigenous values and foster inclusivity in the workplace?

Dylan Jenkins: Thanks for the question. The first thing is we're all wired to tell stories and we all love to talk about ourselves, and we know that from a Western perspective. But that was something that we understood from our traditional ways of governance and our communities before contact. And what that was, is we share or we express ourselves, giving an opportunity to express ourselves, our truths, without judgment, but rather from a place of discernment. So, our governance structures, the ways in which our communities functioned, we were, we always included. Like, that was just the way it was. And when something is interconnected, there is going to be inclusion no matter which way you look at it. And so, when we start looking at workplaces from an EDI, I've always thought it was a bit backwards and that somebody with contrary medicine, as we would say, as a two-spirit, it should be starting this inclusion. And inclusion isn't a thing, it's an action. It's about inviting people and asking questions, interacting.

But storytelling is a huge part of it, and if there's anything that I've learned from my Indigenous colleagues, my Indigenous friends, my Indigenous family, we love to tell stories, and we tell them over and over again, and there's always something to learn from that, and each time we learn something, we're finding a new way forward. And sometimes those stories can take on a life of their own, but I think that's part of the beauty of it, of walking on this path together, is that it's not just an Indigenous practice, it's a human practice. And so, although we're focused on the Indigenous context here, I mean, to me this is just human beings being human, and creating a workplace where it's people first, then process. People first, then the pomp and the circumstances, one may say. And we all feel much better when we're able to bring our authentic self to work, but we need to have a safer place in order to do that, and that's where it starts, is being able to have people be able to tell you what does make a safer space for them, and what invites them into that space, not just by the act of inviting them, but what do they find inviting as well, because it's the interconnection through relationship.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you, Dylan. That's quite insightful and helpful, so thank you for that. I think the idea of being able to start with people and making sure that it's inclusive by default, and not having to work towards inclusion by giving people the opportunity to tell their story, I think is excellent, and particularly in terms of as we look forward to be able to moving forward on people-centered approaches, obviously putting the people at the centre would really be the critical element. So, on that, I was actually wondering if, Michael, I might be able to turn to you, given your experience in also kind of growing up West, how do you see us making sure that we can adopt a people-centered approach that would really reflect Indigenous values and foster inclusivity?

Michael Mills: I think what I would add would be to create the space for people to tell those stories, and also to take leadership, and in many cases, educate people that don't know that there's a very different world view out there. There's different models, there's different ontologies, there's different epistemologies, and that that's okay, and that, try to create an environment where people are interested and curious to actually learn, and that that creates the space for people to be able to tell those stories, and to be able to talk about their values and bring those in. I think the other part, too, is to create spaces that Indigenous employees can actually see themselves. And what I mean by that, like having actual spaces, like having (inaudible), having lodges built into our workplaces where people can actually go and they can actually see Indigenous art, they can actually see symbols, they can meet with Elders. I think if you, the more you can do those kinds of things, create those spaces, people will actually see physical manifestations.

And then, I'd say last but not least would be to actually celebrate. We need to actually celebrate more. I think we've, many of us have worked in, around Indigenous policy for years. We're always, we're dealing with the Indigenous problem, how are we dealing with the Indigenous problem, or this problem, or that. We don't we don't counterbalance that enough with celebration. And celebration has always been a very important part of, let's say, celebration and ceremony, have been very important parts of kind of Indigenous livelihoods. So, I think we need to celebrate more. We need to start with the Summer Solstice, we need to start the Winter Solstice, we need to take time in September and actually celebrate and promote, and use those as opportunities to tell those stories and create space for Indigenous employees to be proud.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you for that, Michael. Very insightful.

I'm going to turn to Iliana in a second, but I think you mentioned the idea that there are different perspectives and different points of view on the world and when we create spaces that are... where people can express themselves and have the chance to work within that. Iliana, you mentioned during the introduction that you have been part of several communities and that you have had experience with different Indigenous communities and First Nations. I wanted to know from your perspective, how you see it that we could have a people-centred approach to ensure that we promote inclusivity and truly reflect Indigenous values?

Iliana Lauriston: Thank you, Lorenzo. This question makes me think a lot about Indigenous values. Being, as I said, interested in seeing what was happening in the different communities, the first thing I noticed was that values are not the same across Canada. Each community has its own specific values. Obviously, there are shared values, but each community, each individual in those communities has values that are specific to them. So, what interests me a lot is the individual. When I think about this question, I think about the individual because we must remember. I've noticed, I've observed and I've experienced. It is also my experience that when we talk about the inclusion of Indigenous employees at work, we often forget the dual reality they can experience when they apply for a job at the federal level. Often, for me in communities. Even for me, when I applied to the federal government in 2008, my Indigenous friends said to me, "Why would you work for a federal government? It is a system that has oppressed us. So why do you want to work on that side of the fence?" And I had some great answers for them. I even wrote some of them down so I wouldn't forget them. But you know, I said to myself, we can make changes, influence public policies, decisions that are made for all sorts of reasons, to have access to resources, to training that we wouldn't have outside the government. Expanding on that, build bridges with people, teach them what's happening in communities, teach them what's happening with Indigenous people, values that are Indigenous. Helping to better defend communities is very important, having this information to help better defend communities. So, all of this is important. And finally, can it provide something in return? It supports [inaudible] not the community, when you have someone who works at the federal level. So, that's the question I ask in order to answer that question. It's that once a person knows why they are coming to work in the federal government, and they are firm in this answer. Well, that makes people see them quite differently. Then, people after that, there is no choice but to include this person in the space because they know very well why they are there. So, that's how I'll answer that question. That's what it made me think about.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you very much for your reply. I think ultimately your answer gives us a good approach to be able to proceed to the next question. Because you mentioned, you were asked the question why would you want to work for the federal government given the history of the Government of Canada? You started to give some answers as to why. But of course, we have and we know that employees who are Indigenous face systemic barriers that are unfortunately not only present in Canadian society, but also in the public service. So, from your perspective based on your experience, how do you think organizations can actively work to eliminate or reduce, at the very least, reduce, but preferably eliminate the barriers that are created by systems and ensure that we have equitable systems? Perhaps Iliana, as you gave a good answer that takes us into the second question, could I stay with you?

Iliana Lauriston: Yes, absolutely. Well, in my role, people often come and chat with me. They still give me feedback on what they're experiencing in their workplace. So, I often hear that there are a lot of visible barriers with the whole lack of representation that sometimes happens in decision-making positions, senior management positions. The prejudices they may experience, prejudices that are unfortunately often increasingly unconscious because people have more and more information in relation to Indigenous communities. But the fact remains that they may experience microaggressions at work, that is always possible. Then, in a way, it's a work environment that does not take into account their cultural reality. So that is still very present. What I also hear often is that there are a lot of invisible obstacles, obstacles that are a little more difficult to qualify, to explain. I often get told about all the bureaucratic language, the acronyms, the administrative jargon. I think it is like that for everyone. When you start at the federal government level, it's like learning a whole new language. So, that, I often hear that. Then, the pace of work, I think, and all the decision-making that normally, in Indigenous communities. This is what I have noticed. It is a beautiful decision-making process that is generally collective and considered, and requires time. But we have less time in a work environment, which is often normal at the corporate level. Well, it's fast. It goes very, very quickly. So, it's completely different and surreal for some employees. So, very important to notice these obstacles, to think about them. Then, to consider them to see how we can remove them or how we can adapt when we are on the other side of the fence. So, I think for employers, how can we help remove some of those obstacles? It's really about encouraging more organic exchanges when there are meetings or gatherings, making sure that we slow down a little to be able to help with informed decision-making and provide as much information as possible. Providing training and then perhaps ensuring that there are fewer meetings, either individual or team meetings, which are tightly scheduled. Then, where we have an extremely direct goal and to ensure, as I said earlier, that it is a little more organic.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you very much, Iliana. Iliana has raised a number of interesting elements including the speed of decision. So, Michael, I may turn to you next. I know that you're the Associate Deputy Minister in a large department that is transactionally focused, we have the, I have the pleasure of working with you on a daily basis, and you are a senior official who obviously is Métis, and you talked about the importance of space. So, given the differences in culture between kind of the public service, including what Iliana was said, which is we even have within the bureaucracy our own language in terms of acronyms, and the way that we speak and we operate, which is obviously quite different from Indigenous communities. So, how can we as organizations, kind of overcome some of the systemic barriers that Indigenous employees face so that we can kind of start getting rid of, or dismantling, or at least minimizing some of the challenges that Indigenous employees face?

Michael Mills: Yeah, I've got a number of points, like Iliana raised a couple points. Like for me, there's two important aspects of culture. Our culture is a, can be viewed as a set of, I would say, informal norms, roles, regulations, that kind of sits with your formal organizational rules, and the other part is some people view culture as the collective knowledge of a people that's transmitted in time, and that knowledge is encapsulated in language. So, you take the way that things work, these norms, these roles, and you take language and you realize that that's where the space of cultural barrier lies. So, I think if people just are aware of that, hey, wait a second, the words that I'm using have embedded knowledge and I need to be reflective of what knowledge is in there, and I also need to be a bit reflective about what are the kind of informal norms that I'm just taking for granted that I think that someone coming in is going to follow, and there's been lots of research on this in the sense that very successful kind of cross-cultural activities really happen where there's kind of, they call it cultural fit, where there's not like the, the norms of one environment don't conflict, but in many cases they do. So, I think being aware of that, and actually thinking about that, reflecting on that and trying to break it down.

A couple of really practical things. The first one is the bureaucracy is a very large organization, it's a massive organization. And so, just even getting acculturated to a big organization is going to be challenging for anyone. But I was lucky.

When I started my career in the public service, I started in an Indigenous field. I worked with Aboriginal Business Canada. So, for me it was a burst of warmth as an environment. It was a very exciting environment because everyone was supporting the work of Indigenous entrepreneurs. So, it was an extraordinary environment. And for me, it was a way to work in an environment that was similar to my own culture, but also in a public service environment. So, it was less quick to enter the public service, in a large organization like the public service.

So, I would really encourage those opportunities maybe to look at, can we, can we try to bring people into maybe environments, or programs and areas that we would, it would be less of a jarring thing to, you're not just going to a different cultural space, you're not going to this massive organization, maybe you can have more points of connection, and cultural connection, that will launch you and create spaces for you to go in the other, like… the other part is we are on this program today, we are able to work across vast distances, because of technology.

So, it's possible for young workers to stay in the community, work with the public service and perhaps obtain a position far from their community using tools like Teams and Zoom.

So, I think we should really look to can we structure the way we bring people into the public sector, maybe allowing them to start out their career in their community and then transition once they've got more comfortable in their job, in the organization, before saying, "Hey, you got to, we're going to force you to leave a community, move to Ottawa or Gatineau, work in this massive organization, work in an environment where they speak a totally different language. In fact, they speak two different languages than you speak, and they're going to follow a bunch of different processes, and rulesets, and kind of informal ways of working that is totally foreign to people." Like, I think if we can, I think we ultimately will have to address a lot of those issues, but maybe we can do them in sequence as opposed to having to do them all in one big bang.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you, Michael. I think, yeah, the norms and language, and obviously the importance of community is, I think, something that will come up more as we discuss today. And so, I want to also give Dylan the opportunity to provide kind of his perspective or his views on this. Dylan, in fact, you spoke about the importance of being able to tell our story, and of course, that the type of language that we use, the words that we use, how we choose to express ourselves is clearly an important part of that, you shared with us earlier today, speaking in your Indigenous language, which was fantastic. So, I was wondering, from your perspective, if we could get kind of your views on the question?

Dylan Jenkins: Sure. Chi Miigwech. The first thing that comes to mind is when it's about, we're inviting, first of all, the inclusion, we're, we want Indigenous, First Nations, Métis, Inuit people to come and work for the Crown. Well, the first systemic barrier of that is the relationship, or shall I say the lack of relationship, of a respectful relationship with First Nation, Métis and Inuit peoples. So, there are historical systemic barriers that we will not rid ourselves of because they have happened and we have to have this radical acceptance that this is what has happened. But in doing so, and we have a lot of this conversation around the trauma, and intergenerational trauma and stuff like this, as if this is only an Indigenous thing. I call this, and I've heard it coined before, the soft bigotry of low expectations. And I have to be honest that, throughout my 25 years, that I have seen it time and time again, that there's this idea that, first of all, we hear it in the work that we do as policy people. Indigenous youth are at risk. What if we change that narrative for once and said, "They are at promise? " And the difference that makes in the psyche of a First Nations youth, that they are at promise, allows them to move forward.

And I would say one of the other biggest systemic barriers within the public service is that we, it's like we can't move ahead as First Nations people or, yes, we have to do the truth and share what has happened in the past. Absolutely. We have to share our stories, as I've spoken about, but at the same time, we need to be able to allow First Nations people to move forward and not to have this idea that, well, because of all of this that has happened historically, you may not make it, and so we're going to do all of these employment equity things for you. Okay, so what we're actually doing is we're reinforcing that we have a low expectation. We don't think you can attain this, when that is not the case, because Michael is sitting here, I am sitting here. So, I know for myself I didn't go through any special Indigenous this or Indigenous that. I came from North Bay, I came to Ottawa, I told my family, I said, I'm going to go work for, "Indian Affairs," as it was called at the time. And this was after my mother's passing, and my father said, "Nobody in their right mind just goes to Ottawa and starts working for the government." And I said, "This is my choice. I'm choosing to go and work for the federal government for a couple of reasons, because I want to serve my people."

So, that's the first thing, it's the barrier, sometimes is there's a lack of understanding that we come there to truly be public servants for our people. And some of us actually come here to heal. And in this case, I came here to heal. I wanted to find out what had happened to my family, and I did. I learned all of these things. I see why they thought this and this, and so I got to come to an understanding. And through that, I share those stories as a sanctioned storyteller with everyone, but particularly young Indigenous public servants. And I say, "You know what? Yeah, it's tough. It is going to be tough. But you knew that coming in here. And if we make it so soft that how do I, how do I climb? Like, if I'm always on this pillow, how do I actually get to climb that ladder? How do I have the challenges that build that resilience? How do I connect with my colleagues if I'm always kind of othered? " And I think that inclusion is about not othering, it's not about special this or special that, it's about tell me more, let me learn, I want to learn, and when we share our truths, then we create, and we know this, The Seven Grandfather Teachings. The easiest way to break through these barriers is to honour the Seven Grandfather Teachings, respect and humility, right?

So, first there's the respect, then there's the humbleness, then let's be brave and let's tell our truth when you know our honesty, being transparent, and then we interconnect that way. That's what love is. It's the interconnection. And once we interconnect, then we have a safer place to tell our truth and all these different truths that we can tell. That's what will break down the systemic barriers to give those places. Because when all the truths come together, and our Elders know this, our grandmothers know this, our ancestors knew this, then we create wisdom, and that wisdom is the new way forward, it's the new way of doing new business. And so, we have to be very careful with the language that we use. Maybe stop saying that Indigenous youth and Indigenous women are at risk. Yes, that is true, but they're also at promise. And so, it's about bringing the balance of the perspective, if we're only looking at it from that, poor you, then what we're creating are victims and we, and the Crown doesn't need to be the villain in the story. We can all do this together.

And that's where I come from when I'm like empowering people to be their own hero. It's like, move forward, find what you need, but when those barriers are presented through, couched in, I'm here to help you but I'm not going to let you come in too quickly, it gives the impression that they already, they didn't have the capacity. And that, I think, is probably one of the most heartbreaking, because when I served as Associate Ombuds, albeit for a very short period of time, at ISC, the stories that I heard from Indigenous employees, primarily Indigenous women and two-spirit was, it's like, they think I am dumb. Imagine coming to work every day and feeling that people around you think that you're dumb, that the entire bureaucracy think that you're dumb, when you're there to serve your people, and not just your people on reserve, or in your Métis communities or in your Inuit land base, but all of us, because our teachings, it wasn't divided up. As is Elder Verna showed us, we are all interconnected and we have to be doing this together.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Miigwech. Thank you, Dylan. Michael, did you want to…?

Michael Mills: Yeah, I just want to jump in. I fully agree with where Dylan is. Like, one of the things I have experienced over my entire career being kind of in and out of Indigenous policy is we, a lot of times we, I think people are very good, from a place of goodness, really focus on we got to solve all these social problems. Then you say, well, what about these other opportunities, like these economic opportunities or these other places where people can demonstrate their excellence? They always take a back seat to like solving the problem. I would, and the other part about the, and like, the soft pillow piece, I think another one we just need to be aware of is it is challenging, as Dylan raised, to sit there and think about are you okay working in an organization that has had very different relationship to your family and your people than it has to other Canadians? It's not easy, and I don't think it should be easy. I actually think it's a, you may ultimately make the decision that it's not the place for you, but I think actually being courageous enough that, to challenge yourself to think through that, to have that debate in your head, to feel that tension, to really probe that question, because it's the same thing. The Indian Act has a lot of bad things, but the Indian Act isn't responsible for 100% of what's wrong in your in your life. Like, you have to find out where am I responsible versus where's the external, and the only way you can do that is by actually confronting it, and actually thinking through it. So, ultimately, some people, it will not be the place for them. And I recognize that. But I do think if we're always worried about being so sensitive, we don't want anyone to have discomfort, I think sometimes you have to, to get to an honesty and to get to a wisdom, you have to have some discomfort.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you, Michael, and thank you, Dylan. I think you have raised a number of interesting points, including how we kind of create and get to wisdom. And Dylan, I'll pick up on something that you talked about, which is even reframing so that we can talk about Indigenous youth that are at promise instead of being at risk, and that often has to do with kind of being able to influence both culture but also decision making. So, I'd like to be able to use that to kind of move to another question that I think we'd be interested in getting the views of panelists on, which is, we talk about what are the ways that we can talk about being able to change that narrative, and moved from, just as Michael was saying, kind of identifying the problem but not just, but fixing the problem but also identifying opportunities. And Dylan, as I mentioned, you talked about Indigenous youth being at promise instead of at risk, kind of some shifts in terms of the way that we think about these things, part of that is applying an Indigenous lens to how we undertake our activities, the workplace practices that we have, how we make decisions, how we frame questions, issues, concerns and so on. So, I think the next question I'd like to ask is, so what does it mean to apply kind of an Indigenous lens to workplace practices, to decision making, to how we frame issues and so on, and how can we apply an Indigenous lens to make sure that we're having changes on a positive way to organizational culture? And I'd say kind of from micro, in terms of individuals asking themselves, questions of ourselves, all the way up to the entire federal public service, which is hundreds of federal departments and agencies, hundreds of thousands of employees. So, I think I started with Michael last time, so I think I might actually come back to Dylan and give him the opportunity to go first this time. So, I'm hopefully being equitable in terms of who gets to go first in responding. So, Dylan, did you want to maybe start off on this one?

Dylan Jenkins: Yeah, sure, sure, I'd be happy to, Lorenzo. I think that if, just simply put, how many public servants have been to a First Nation community, been to a Métis settlement area, have been up north? Some of us have, some of us have not. And in fact, another element to be mindful of is not all First Nations people have a reserve experience. For myself, I am from York Factory First Nation. I never lived on the reserve, it was only, became a reserve in 1986. But there's another side of this story. I'm the Hudson Bay Company experience, I'm the fur trade experience for my, through my family, okay? So, how do we see there's all kinds of different lenses? So we, once again, and I say this respectfully, the Western way has always been one brush paints all, individualism, whereas our communities, our ways of knowing and being were very collectivist. So, we would, what that would require is, and we're doing it much better now than we ever did from when I first started in the public services engagement, and then we hear, well, there's engagement fatigue. Well, yes, because we engage on every single little micro thing. It's, how about going into communities and seeing for yourself, and feeling for yourself, because it's not just about seeing it, but it's also about feeling it. And so, not all of us, we don't, we all have different experiences. So, I don't speak to the reserve experience, I don't speak to my family's residential school experience, because my mother went to a religious day school, albeit just as unfortunate. So, I don't speak to those because, first of all, that's not my place to speak. So, I haven't seen that. Do you know what I mean? I haven't sensed that. I haven't had that experience.

So, I think the first thing is when we talk about Indigenous cultural competency, well, the only person who can be truly competent in Indigenous culture is an Indigenous person, and I think this is where allyship comes in. It's let's walk this together. It's I've always been that AMA sort of person, if you want to ask me about this, ask me about that, I'm happy to tell. Then I have other colleagues who are like, I'm not here to educate everybody on this and that. Okay that's fine, but then how do we learn? Because that's an exclusionary experience as well for others. It's like, well, I just I wanted to learn. So, it's again, coming back to that first teaching of respect. It's just, applying an Indigenous lens means you've had to have had that experience. And so, I can't see the world through a new Canadian's eyes. And we can even think of it as, very simple, as when we first started in the federal government, and many of us have been around quite some time, I guess they're called dinosaurs now, we forget when these younger public servants come in. We're like, we'll just do this, and just do that, and just do this and just do that, because we have grown so much. This is where we give back. That's the wisdom coming back, and we respect, okay, you're in this space. So, it's about taking, giving something first before you get the knowledge through interacting with your Indigenous colleagues, your Indigenous communities, but I would really encourage every public servant to have the chance to make, create relationships, right? It's not just ding-dong, can I show up? It's about relationships. And so, applying an Indigenous lens requires interconnection. We see things interconnectedly. And jokingly also there's signs everywhere. As Indigenous people, it's like the bird flew by, that must have meant something today. We see things very differently, but only because of our lived experiences.

But if we were to look deep, and the Elders remind us of this, to go within, within, within, we have all had very similar experiences. It is not just an Indigenous experience to be taken from family and community. It is not just an Indigenous experience. So, it's about being vulnerable. So, for those of us that have not had the Indigenous experience, I would encourage you to be vulnerable and say, "I don't know." And that's hard for us in the public service, because we like to think of ourselves as the smarty pants, and we are smarty pantses, right, but we got to connect the head to the heart, and we can be emotionally intelligent as well. And it's about making those relationships in a respectful way, being humble. I know Dr. Nadia Ferrara does cultural humility training, goes to various, I encourage that for every department to have an opportunity just to start there. And then that starts to create a place of safety because the Indigenous lens is about safety, care, comfort. It's not about we got to go do this, as we typically are. So, the Indigenous lens, think of it as just it chills everything out. It's no, it's not rose coloured by any stretch of the imagination, but we slow things down. So, when we hear, Indian time, well, that can be seen as a bit of a microaggression, but the truth is what we mean is all in good time, nothing needs to be rushed. The lens is one of connection, of compassion, of understanding, and that only gets removed when we're forced to look at things from another perspective, like we can't just take off the lenses, whereas others can. So, we have to be mindful that this isn't just about lenses, this is actually about lived experiences, but finding where we've had shared lived experiences and come to an understanding that way.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you, Dylan, for your perspective on Indigenous lens or lenses. You kind of talked about the importance of interconnection, seeing things differently in terms of the lived experience, the need to be vulnerable, and all in good time in terms of the approach. So, these are the kind of things that we want to be able to kind of highlight a little bit because as part of being able to change the way that we do work, it will require us to be able to apply, and I realize, Dylan, that you said it's not a lens that we can kind of just put on and take off, but part of this is being able to increase the level of awareness that there are different perspectives, and there are different modes of thinkings, and that there are different approaches that are used that are culturally important, that can help us from an organizational perspective. So, with that, I might turn to Michael next, then Iliana, afterwards, in terms of kind of, from your perspective, how can we apply Indigenous lenses to our workplace practices and how can these help in terms of organizational culture and how we make decisions? Michael, we'll start with you.

Michael Mills: Yeah, I'll raise a few there, more, I'll say more specific, reflecting on this. Like, first of all, I would draw it back to like specific communities and culture. So, for me, I look at three that are specific to the Métis, and shared a bit with like our Cree cousins. First one is (inaudible), which is really about the good life. It's about balance, it's inner balance between kind of, the physical, the emotional, the mental and the spiritual, and thinking about how you live towards the good life in practice. But with, from real events like when I come back to the public sector, is you never actually get there, but it's part of practice. Like, you're always in, trying to every day live a good life, so you're always trying to find balance. And you may not always be balanced, but you will always strive to do that. So, I think a lot of what we do in government, we think we can solve a problem, move on to the next one. We may not ever solve the problem. We may make it better, we may be working towards improvement, but we just need to work on a balance and be able to think about multiple things. Similar to what was said a bit about relationality, so I do think about the concept of (inaudible), which is really about our kin, kinship, relationships, that we are connected to everyone and everything, both living and non-living.

So, I really think about how do you build networks, how do you build relationships? I really believe what Dylan said around, one of the first things that struck me when I came to PSPC, I was working in real property, was one of, some people that worked for me were really nervous to go meet with the Algonquins of Ontario, and I'm like, "Well, why are you guys so worried? " "Because we, we go once a year, we have like this half hour discussion, it's really tough." And I'm like, "Well, do you think you're maybe approaching this wrong? " Like you're in a relationship. Like, the Algonquins of Ontario aren't going anywhere, we're in Algonquin territory so we need to recognize we're in their territory, we need to build a relationship and we need to go look about like is once enough, a once a year visit enough to actually have a relationship and have a meaningful… That's our start point. So, I went there and basically said, "Here's who I am. We're in a relationship. We have to have a relationship. We're going to be working together forevermore.

And so, I want to talk to you about what I'm focused on today, what I'm focusing on two years from now, where I think we'll be in ten years, get your feedback. We're not always going to get along. We're in a relationship. Sometimes you get along, sometimes you don't, but we need to have a relationship, and we need to be always building that and be conscientious of that. So, I think just having that perspective about building networks, building relationships, being mindful of those connections. And then the last one I really try to bring is this concept of (inaudible), which is sometimes translated as freedom, but often translated literally as those that own themselves, so like entrepreneurial. So, I really see it as trying to bring an entrepreneurial idea of like, Elmer Ghostkeeper, a very famous Métis Elder, has kind of viewed it, as he called it, Métis ways of doing, as kind of finding ways to do stuff. And that's to me what I try to think of on this entrepreneurial viewpoint of, is how do we find a way to make something work, or to solve a problem, or to achieve a result and try to bring that, always like, saying like, "Let's not shy away, let's not back away, let's try and find a way to actually get it done," and I bring that attitude to work every day.

Lorenzo Ieraci: All right. Thank you, Michael. Yeah, I think the idea of being able to have the practice of the good life and balance, I think a lot of us would struggle with that on a daily basis. But I think the idea that this is a practice and something that we need to kind of focus on and work towards or strive towards is, I find it really insightful, and obviously, relationships as well as the kind of entrepreneurial spirit of, I hope I'm kind of summarizing that greatly. We'll turn to our colleague Iliana to get her perspective, given her background in history.

On this point, Iliana, once again, I would like to hear your perspective: how can we apply an Indigenous perspective to workplace practices and how can that influence not only the culture, but also the way we make decisions within the public service? I turn to you.

Iliana Lauriston: Thank you, Lorenzo. So, what I think when I hear this question is that I have worked and still work in urban clinical environments that I call Eurocentric because we have a far more, shall we say, European clientèle. And, in urban areas, when patients have been waiting for us... Often, this has unfortunately been the case for some time. Patients have waited a long time to see doctors and nurses. When we sit down with them, often the patients are very impatient. It's like a race. If we spend half an hour or an hour with them, it's a race. They have a list of questions for us, hundreds of questions. Then we answer and answer. We give as much information as possible.

Often, this leads to other questions. They want to receive as many services as possible. It's really like a business exchange and then I would tell you that at the end of these interviews, it is often very unsatisfactory for both the health professionals and the patient. Since we are exhausted, both of us, we are exhausted. Then, when I started working in the Indigenous community, I immediately noticed that even when I was working 12-hour, 16-hour shifts, I even worked 34 hours in a row at one point because there were emergencies. I was never, never exhausted. Then I asked myself the question, but how come, if it's the same job? It became a sign. I answer questions. What I noticed and when talking with colleagues, we noticed the same thing. It's that there really is a natural rhythm in Indigenous communities in relation to everything around them.

So, in the case of our patients, if we come back to this example, the patients often had... took the time to have periods of silence. They didn't necessarily have a long list of questions to ask. They went about it intuitively and organically, interacting a lot with us. I think one of the reasons I was never exhausted was that my patients often felt the need to give me something. Since I brought something important into their lives when I found a solution to their problem, and they were extremely happy about it.

Well, they wanted it to be reciprocal. They wanted to give me something in return. So often they would say to me, well Iliana, pay attention to this thing in town, or I'll show you this or that thing. I'm going to show you how it works in our community, about this or that. There was always an exchange, it was circular. It's completely circular. So, it was a complete game changer in terms of relationships with people in the community. So that's how I would answer. Work practices and this is always present with an Indigenous perspective.

This is how it should look at work. So, something much more circular, something much more fluid, more organic where people are exchanging information, where we're not racing against the clock just to try to fill the space with words, fill the space with questions. There are hundreds of questions that don't need to be asked. We really have to get to the bottom of it. We need to have an approach, I believe, that is much less transactional. And that, I think, would help a lot. If we could bring this perspective into our work environments, there would be a huge change.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you very much, Iliana. I think you mentioned the idea of having a relationship that is more of a circulation, and practices and norms. Again, I think that's part of what we have started and what we're discussing this afternoon, which is that there are approaches that are certainly different. And that can give us several different leads and avenues, not only to be able to find a positive side and see how we can improve everything, but also to ensure that we have approaches that are much more in line with Indigenous cultures.

And that will actually be kind of a nice segue into another question that I have, and Dylan, I'll pick up on the fact that you mentioned in one of your responses, allyship and the importance of that. And that is often something that we hear, which is we, there are a lot of both opportunities but also challenges that are being faced, and often, public servants will ask, "Well, how can I help as maybe a non-Indigenous person, to be able to improve the situation? " So, the question really is about kind of what does meaningful allyship look like in supporting Indigenous colleagues, in supporting Indigenous communities, and how can we make sure that allies, ensure that their actions are aligned with the needs of Indigenous communities?

I asked the question in English, but I'll repeat it in French. Then, I'll turn to Iliana first this time, to give her the opportunity to answer first. Then after that, we'll turn to our colleagues, Dylan and Michael. So, Iliana, the question is what does meaningful ally support look like for Indigenous colleagues and how can allies ensure that actions meet the needs in Indigenous communities?

Iliana Lauriston: Thank you very much again. There are terms there that I would like to revisit because for me, there is something that has bothered me for years now, and that is the word "ally." I use it. When people ask me, "Are you an ally?" Yes, I accept it because I understand what it is, but I don't think it's the right term for me. As someone who does a lot of traditional medicine. And, when we talk about traditional medicine, we are talking about traditional medicine from around the world. Not only in relation to Indigenous people, but the principles are the same. In global traditional medicines, we speak of interconnectedness. We also talked about it a little bit in the first few questions.

So, I prefer to say that I feel connected, that I feel that I am part of a phenomenon of interconnectedness with Indigenous people and not an ally. An ally, I think I used the word earlier, it's transactional. It's for making business work. I find that when you are an ally, you are either equal or there is equity between the parties. These are not yet there in my opinion. There really is a great deal of systemic imbalance, social imbalances, which are persistent.

So, we are not allies. We are really... I prefer to be connected. And the people who try to come and help in Indigenous communities are not necessarily allies. And I think Dylan touched on something that made me react earlier, which is to be careful. Connection, what does it mean to connect with others? It's much softer. It's much more about trying to connect with someone.

So, creating links with these people, learning from these people. And that, I say that word, I have seen it. I have observed it in communities. Many people who come from outside listen intellectually to people in the communities explaining what they have experienced, explaining their history, explaining everything that has happened in the past, that is happening today. And they say, yes, yes, yes, I understand. I understand your experience. It will never be possible to understand a person's experience. I know it myself. I am a Black woman. I can explain what it's like to be a Black woman until the cows come home. If you're not a Black woman, you'll never fully understand all the nuances, all the things we experience every day, every minute.

So, it's the same for people in the Indigenous community. But we can, by creating connections with these people, at least be willing to learn as much as possible. Then, digest as much of the information given to us as possible. So, it's really about wanting to build a relationship that is as respectful as possible with these people. And recognizing, in some way, the real-life situations, being as sincere as possible, so that it is not devoid of meaning, in other words. It takes a partnership that is authentic to make that happen, to make sure that there is a connection and not alliances.

These are the few things I wanted to say. I'm not a big fan of the word "alliance," but that's just my opinion. And I think it's also very important, if we come back to the topic of work and the federal government, not to hire Indigenous people in order, necessarily, to meet diversity requirements. You really have to see what a gift this is. It is extremely worthwhile and important to have Indigenous employees on our teams. The federal government is really lucky. And we have to see it as an opportunity to enrich our organization as well, to have people who bring with them a culture that is rich in all kinds of ways.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Great. Thank you very much, Iliana. I think you touched on several important aspects, particularly making sure that, as an ally, we are not looking at or using approaches that are only transactional, but that we have good connections through respectful relationships and an authentic partnership, which makes me think about concepts that are important at the conversation level.

But obviously, while the term ally or allyship has certain meanings and connotations, I think by and large, as Iliana was identifying, I think the view is that it's people who want to genuinely want to be able to have a positive impact, be able to help become more culturally sensitive, or aware to the extent that they can be, and so on. So, I'm interested in kind of the views of our other colleagues, and maybe I can start with Dylan, in terms of what, to your mind, does meaningful allyship look like and how can allies make sure that they're, in their activities and what they do, that their actions kind of align with the needs of Indigenous communities?

Dylan Jenkins: Thank you. I think that the biggest thing, or the most significant approach to allyship that I have experienced, is being given space to be Indigenous and not having to ask to be Indigenous in the public service. So, I have been very fortunate. I have to be honest here, that I have, I have had some outrageous sort of experiences as a First Nations person, as a two-spirit person, but they're outweighed by the meaningful allyship of time, space. And what I mean by that is, coach, get off the field. So, sometimes what happens is my experience has been everybody has always been very eager to support. I haven't, other than some perhaps microaggressions, or some off putting sort of comments, and kind of assumptions and that kind of thing that we've had to navigate, I would say it's we're at the table now. If I have been in the public service for as long as I've had, if Michael's been in the public service as long as he has, and there's many others who have been in the public service for a very long time who are First Nations, Métis and Inuit, and have had wonderful careers and long-serving careers. We've been here, and this goes back to my point earlier, it's like, can we move ahead now? We are actually at the table. And so, I've had experiences where, very well-meaning, okay, you don't need to talk for me, you don't need to make it seem like I'm a victim, because what you're doing is you're actually perpetuating the stereotype. We are empowered now. It's one of the, back to a systemic barrier, okay, can you kind of back away now? Like, thanks, I appreciate it. So, I think we've moved, we're starting to move away from what I call reactive allyship to more responsive allyship.

So, I would encourage people who, when they want to, I want to be an ally, what can I do different? Let us do what we need to be doing. So, for example, if you have a situation where in the workplace where an employee, Indigenous employee, is kind of getting the gears about something and you're recognizing it, you don't have to come in, swoop in and save me. Let's say I'm going through it, okay, you don't have to swoop in and save me. I don't need, and this is a term, the, "white saviour." We don't need you to come in and save me. What you, active, meaningful, responsive allyship is saying, "I don't want that in my workplace. I don't want you treating Indigenous employees that way." It's no longer about the Indigenous employee, it's about the behaviour. It's like, that's not tolerable here. What that creates is a sense of collective accountability, and it doesn't disempower the Indigenous employee. This is what we have to be mindful of as being an ally, please don't disempower an Indigenous employee, rather give them the space, maybe a little break to be like (inaudible), what's going on there? And then, putting it, okay, yeah, like I'm not going to tolerate that behaviour because it's actually not a cultural thing for us to speak up and promote our selves.

So, we'll kind of just, we'll just kind of take it. And you don't understand that in that moment as it's like, okay, am I going to be seen as this, this, this and this, right? Because we wear that every day, no matter how professional, no matter how many years, no matter, it'll still, you get triggered in those situations. Allow people to work themselves out of what I would call triggered situations to the best of their ability. You only step in when it is clear that this is going to a place where there is just harm, where there's harm coming. It's not just, okay, well, this, he's being a bit difficult in the workplace. It's about where now there's a harm, because we know that as human beings, we know when somebody's being a jerk, we know when somebody's being disingenuous, and I think in places where perhaps we haven't been able to reclaim our place, and space, and circle and counsel, that it is the inclusivity, the act of inclusivity, it's like, hey, so we've got as the School has done here, it's like, come on in and talk with us. This is inclusivity in the public service. You have a place here, this is your space, you can talk now, and nobody's talking over, nobody's correcting, nobody's like, "Yeah, it's like this and it's like that." It all stands on its own. And I think as long as allyship is about keeping someone empowered, then that's always meaningful allyship.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you, Dylan, for your perspectives. Michael, wanted to give you the opportunity as well in terms of your views on allyship.

Michael Mills: Yeah, I think a lot of it's been captured. I would just add that, yeah, we really want to, looking for people that are, if you're the manager, you're going to give that person a chance. Maybe they don't have the same education, maybe they don't have quite the same experience, but take a chance on someone that's a good employee. I think showing up to events and ceremonies, being open to like, learn and understand is important piece, and I keep coming back to this, we put a lot emphasis on kind of the big (inaudible), Indigenous word, just Indigenous this, Indigenous this, that. I would ask also people to really get focused on where they are. Like, Indigeneity is like tied to the land, you're tied to, and the land is where you are. It's not tied to land that's across the across the globe, it's tied to the locality of where you are. So, people will generally take interest, they'll listen to your stories, they'll create space and that will actually show that, listen, they're going to try and take active measures to understand, like whose land are they on? What does that mean? What language they speak? What's their history, and what's the impact that they're having on that land and that kind of relationality? So, to me, it's like if people can be genuine, show that, it'll radiate and it'll create a better environment for everyone.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Great. Thank you, Michael. And I think all of you have kind of highlighted a couple of things that really have to do with kind of, in terms of allyship, also kind of talks about or links to cultural-appropriate practices. So, the next question that I'm going to ask to all of you is how can leaders integrate culturally appropriate practices in their leadership style to support their Indigenous team members in order to be able to foster a respectful work environment? Dylan, you mentioned that activities should not, don't disempower people when you're trying to do it. Michael spoke about ceremonies and events, but also the importance of Indigeneity and the ties to the land, and Iliana spoke about authentic partnerships, and making sure that we have relationships that are built on sincerity and that are respectful. So, for each one of you though, often we talk about Indigenous culture, how can leaders make sure in the context of being allies, but also just in terms of managing teams, how can they integrate culturally appropriate practices in their leadership styles so that we can encourage and support Indigenous team members within our work environments? I'm doing a bad job, I've lost track of who I've asked first, so I will kind of not arbitrarily go, I'll go to Dylan first, followed by Michael and maybe we'll end this question with Iliana. So, Dylan is you want to go first?

Dylan Jenkins: Sure. I think one of the key elements is learning what it was like from, so we're in the bureaucracy, we're the public service, we had our own sort of public service practices there. It wasn't quite as the pomp and circumstance. We had our ceremonies, of course. Leaders lead people. You don't lead files, you lead people. So, you have to connect to your people. So, a cultural practice that I have actually incorporated in the work that I do, and it met with a little bit of, you know, at first, but not from the organization, but just from, I think, a lack of understanding. And so, we have the giveaway, so you'll have that at some ceremonies, and we have feasts and we have the potlatch. And so, what that is, it's the balancing of power within a community, within a group. And because we didn't understand power and control, we understood care, comfort for cultural perpetuity, so self-actualization and community actualization. And so, I, and some of us actually this, but if you do it in the context of the giveaway, so the bear circle, for example, which was being led out of Indigenous Services Canada, they would have an opportunity to meet with an Elder every couple of months and we would talk about policy, and we would talk about it not in the context of the way we think of it as bureaucrats, but rather, about people, hopes, dreams, fears, where do people want to be going, and using different methodologies to evaluate, one of the elements that we would talk about is how we evaluate programs and policies.

And so, we were incorporating (inaudible), and this was Elizabeth MacDonald, Métis, who, this was her vision, and worked with element of Elders, Solomon Wawatie and Elder Barbara Brant, some other elders came as well, and a lot of guidance with this. People just started feeling like, hey, we belong to something, Indigenous and non-Indigenous. It became a space where we could be okay just within ourselves as professionals, and what started happening was that professional kind of self we bring to the space started relaxing and we started having, as Iliana's talking about, those sincere relationships. And so, part of that, so we do circle, sharing circle, we get the teaching which is really just Elders reminding us of things we've forgotten. Then there would be the giveaway. So, at work, NRCI invited my team to do so, and then lovely enough, the Bear Circle (inaudible), actually had chosen some items of the giveaway, and brought them to me and said, "This is to honour you for coming to our circle and having them come and sit with us." And so you see, it's reciprocity. We don't have a lot of reciprocity, I find, in the government. What we have is more of the I need this, I want this.

And I remember this wonderful story that my, a wonderful colleague of mine, and friend, Melvin Musqua, told me about how when he went to go talk to an Elder, and he himself being Saulteaux, went to go talk to an Elder and the Elder made him do dishes, and made him make tea and made him do all kinds of things before she provided the answers. So, you see, it's a place of reciprocity where we don't have the hierarchy. So, we had roles and responsibilities and we didn't have a hierarchy. So, our Okima, our leadership, would bring in people from different perspectives in order to figure what is best for the all. And we tend to do what is best for the one as opposed to what is best for the all. And when you have that interconnection, those meaningful, sincere relationships, that's what empowers teams, that's an Indigenous practice, that's a First Nations practice. That was our way of governing. You can incorporate this in all kinds of different ways within your work environments, and I would encourage you to bring in Elders, Knowledge Keepers, artists, storytellers to come in and to make those connections, because it's (inaudible) theory, it has to be experiential learning. And so, that's what I would say, is incorporate more experiential learning as well, so you're having the experience and then that way you're seeing it, and you're feeling it and it becomes a truth for you as well.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you, Dylan. We'll turn to Michael next. I know that Dylan has given us a couple of examples, and I know that, for example, within Public Services and Procurement Canada, we do use Elders to be able to help on certain initiatives, or certain files, in terms of being able to do some of the things that Dylan was speaking about. But Michael, I was wondering if you wanted to provide us with your views in terms of how leaders can integrate culturally appropriate practices?

Michael Mills: Yes, I do think incorporating Elders is an important thing, particularly if you have a very, I would say tough issue to kind of go through. Like, my view is that the Elders can put everyone in the right frame of mind going off, that they can participate in discussions and actually contribute, and also kind of redirect the discussion or continue to sustain a positive energy that will help you get to a solution, and that sometimes they can bring a very different perspective at the end to help you wrap it up, that you may not solve a problem that day but it sets you off to go have a reflection that comes back with a better outcome. To me, that's important. Some other practical ways we can do it is, there are traditional teachings, there are the Métis Giving Tree and stuff, that have values. As organizations, often we actually write up value statements, we post them on the wall, we show people. A practical thing we could do is bring some of these other kind of value statements from the Indigenous world, and post them on the wall, and let people think about them and have discussions about them. And what do they mean in your life? And do they resonate or not? And why not?

Like, I think just even doing that and having that conversation, really, Dylan's point about reciprocity really resonated with me because there's a concept about the whole world as a gift, right? That the Creator created the world, put all the knowledge out in the world, put everything into the world, and that every time we use anything or we get a piece of knowledge, we should actually give thanks, and there should be an actual, a physical manifestation of a tiny gift to kind of reciprocate the fact that you've got that. So, I think if we can bring more of that in, and it's not equal, reciprocity is not about equal. Say someone's working for you and they give 10 hours of labour to write a paper, maybe you're only giving a thanks, or you're giving praise or you're sharing the ideas with the rest of your team and really acknowledging someone. It's not necessarily that you're doing the equal amount of effort, but that reciprocity is super important because you're recognizing the gift of that person's effort and what they've given back, so, trying to do that. The last thing I think that's really important is, I try to do, is like I'm pretty structured in terms of organization, which Lorenzo can tell you, but I try to also have an informal, but my informal governance is also, is my form of kind of the Sharing Circle, maybe I need to start calling that more where I actually want to hear a diversity of use.

But that doesn't mean… I know that sometimes we hear all Indigenous people are very consensus-based. I believe in consensus of understanding, but not consensus of action or decision. Like, we have to hear a wide variety of positions, we ultimately have to find a way to make a decision, and not everyone is going to be on the same page, but everyone needs to be able to be given the space to talk. We need to be respectful and hear what, hear their voices, hear their perspectives, weigh them and make a decision. And for me, it's really important to make sure that people feel that they have the space to give their views and that their views are respected, even if they're not accepted. And that's not always easy to do. It's not always seen. I know a lot of times I'm very direct, I make decisions quickly and people think I'm not respecting, but I do try to think about how to make sure that people know I'm hearing them, I'm appreciating them, I'm respecting their ideas, even if I have to go in a different direction. So, that's something that's try to do and not, like everyone else, fallible, make mistakes and not, do it imperfectly, but try to incorporate that and kind of model that.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you, Michael. And since I work with you, I'll just quickly say that I can echo that and say that I've seen it in practice. I think Michael does give people certainly a lot of time and space to be able to, for us to be able to share our views and perspectives, although he often is called upon to have to make decisions, often in short timeframes. But the idea, the consensus on understanding, but not necessarily on decisions, I think is an important one. And both Michael and Dylan picked up on the idea or the concept of reciprocity as being something that is kind of an important element in terms of practices.

I would now like to turn to Iliana to give her the opportunity to provide her perspective as well. So, Iliana, on your side, how do you think leaders can integrate appropriate cultural practices into their leadership style to better support Indigenous team members and foster a respectful work environment?

Iliana Lauriston: Thank you for the question. So, for this question, I thought of two little stories of real-life events, things that I experienced. The first story is really my work with the Dene communities in the Northwest Territories. At one point, I was working at the clinic with a young teenager, a young man. This young man had health problems, including certain disabilities. The people in the community had closed everything, almost every store, every place closed, almost everywhere. I didn't know what was going on. There was a commotion. Then I was told that the hunters were going to leave, were leaving the community. It is often very exciting seeing the hunters. Hunters are like superheroes in the Far North.

So, people will often close up their work then follow the hunters to see what's going on. So, they came to me and said, "Give us back our 16-year-old boy. We need him now." I said, "Yes, what's going on?" They said, "Well, he's part of the hunting party." The hunting group with about three or four people. And they said that he is part of the hunting group because his role is to connect with the animals. I said, "My God." That touched me enormously because in mental health, we know that it is very, very, very important that a person has a very specific role in a group. It's very important for leadership, for people who are in positions of leadership, to know what the role is, what kind of role the person likes to have. For example, I love being a healer. I love being a person who helps people heal. I am not the one who heals others. People heal themselves. I am there to support their healing.

So if people recognize that in me, if I join a group of people and people say, "Yes, Iliana, we recognize her as having that role." Not only does it make me happy, but it helps with leadership. So that's the first story. It is very important to assign roles or let people assume a place, a very specific role on the team. So, the second story that this made me think of. When I was in an Indigenous community for 10 years, the nurses—I have worked in health centres where I was the only nurse, and I have worked in health centres where there were eight, nine nurses because the communities were quite a bit bigger. When there were a lot of us nurses, obviously, there was a head nurse.

Often the head nurse has many years of experience, 30 years, 40 years of experience, while the other nurses have varying amounts of experience. But when there was an emergency, whether it was because there had been a car accident or because a woman was urgently giving birth, the head nurse was not necessarily the leader. It was not necessarily the head nurse who would be in charge of the situation. It would be the nurse in the group who had the most experience with the situation in question, and therefore the emergency in question.

So even if there was a nurse in the group who only had three or four years of nursing experience, who was only three or four years out of school, but who had worked three or four years in obstetrics and was able to help someone deliver their baby, that person was in charge for the duration of the emergency. I found that really lovely. I think it's very important for leaders to recognize people's talent and skill when you are responsible for doing something, are in charge, are providing leadership. Sometimes, talent and skill do not necessarily come from the position you have at that moment.

Often, the people work with us. They've worked in other roles for years prior, or they have hobbies outside of work that mean that they have talents and skills that we don't know about. We need to find out what these talents are, what these skills are, in order to offer a much more flexible model of leadership, I believe. I think that just those two stories have touched me and shown me how possible it is to use Indigenous techniques or ways of doing things to improve leadership in a workplace.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you very much, Iliana. I think the importance of talent and skill that you mentioned does not necessarily mean that just because someone is in a specific position—there are people around us who may have talents and skills that can help us deal with situations or challenges. And the other thing you mentioned is certainly the role of people on teams and the importance of that. You also mentioned the positive impact this can have on mental health. So, in the end, I'm going to ask another question that really gets to the heart of the conversation we're having this afternoon. Since you work in the field, Iliana, maybe I'll put the question to you first.

And after that, give Michael and Dylan the opportunity to follow up. But really, the question around mental health is: how can workplaces support the mental health and well-being of Indigenous employees by integrating relevant cultural practices and resources? And as we discussed this afternoon, it's certainly a fairly broad question in terms of cultures, but nevertheless, given your background, I think we would be interested in seeing from your perspective, what do you think we could do to make our workplaces even healthier in terms of mental health?

Iliana Lauriston: I think this issue is my hobby horse here in the federal government, given that I really love traditional medicine. I create all the training sessions that I do. The talks I give are always what I call culturally safe. I am careful to talk about everything that is happening around the world, not just in North America and not just in urban areas.

So, I pay attention to all of this. So, as far as Indigenous employees are concerned, there is something I would like to start by saying, which is that in Canada, health providers, especially in psychological health, psychological support services of all kinds, whether social workers or psychologists—unfortunately, in my opinion—have approaches that we call Eurocentric. What comes to mind, mainly, is the therapy called cognitive behavioural therapy. I think 98% of psychological health providers who are going to provide services to the EAP.

Our employees are often told to turn to the EAP. But unfortunately, 98% of the people who provide services there use this therapy. Why do they use this therapy? It is very popular in universities. It is very popular among the professional bodies that these people must answer to. It's a therapy that is really focused on performance, on efficiency, on rapid problem solving. I call it corporate therapy. OK, it's pretty dry. This is not at all, at all, adapted to Indigenous realities.

So, that's very important to know because these types of therapy, for example, will individualize problems. They will say, you have a problem, then we will solve your problem. We will try to help you with your problem. When we know that physical health problems and mental health problems are multifactorial. They can be physical problems that the person has. It can be a problem with diabetes, hypertension, other chronic diseases. The person may have, as we all know, emotional problems. I think that with people, it is all about what they think on an emotional level. But people have problems, and there are other factors.

There are social problems, environmental problems, or problems with their family, their community, and spiritual problems. Then, in the case of many, many people who come to work in the federal government, including Indigenous people, historical problems. So, multi-multifactorial. So, we don't want to take care of just the individual. We want to take care of everything around us. So, in the Indigenous healing traditions that I have been able to observe and that I have been able to work with, hands on, we do not deal with the person alone, the intervention is not just at the individual level, the intervention is communal. There is really a question of interconnection with everyone, with nature, with rituals, in communities, with Elders.

So, my number one suggestion for the federal government, I don't know if it's possible, but my number one suggestion would really be to hire Elders at the EAP to provide services, moral support, emotional support and mental health support that is much more suited to Indigenous employees. I'm sure it would be full. The meeting would be full, in addition to providing jobs to Elders in the communities.

So, that's my number one suggestion. Then, number two, if it's not possible to have Elders, it's really about creating spaces where employees can share their culture as much as possible. It's about special days, obviously, letting employees leave when they need to go to ceremonies in their community, to go do things like that. So, not asking the question, not stating it, either. It doesn't have to be sick leave. It doesn't have to be mental health leave. It's a preventive leave to maintain health. There are other alternative forms of help everywhere if we don't find any, because I know, I'm saying it really quickly right now. I know that people often tell me when they turn to services, it takes time, six months, a year to receive services these days, right now. So there are other forms of help that we can seek elsewhere, such as religious leaders if people are interested, such as Elders in your community and members of your family. So, there you have it.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Great. Thank you very much. Two very, very useful and very practical suggestions. I'm not sure about the first one, but I think that even if we can't place Elders at the centre, having more Elders in organizations or having access to their knowledge, their service, their perspectives, I think that that, too, would be something that could certainly help the different departments, the different organizations. So, thank you very much, Iliana, for your perspective.

Michael, I'd like to turn to you next in terms of, again, looking at how we can ensure that workplaces better support the mental health and well-being of Indigenous employees. I know Iliana has given us a couple of ideas in terms of how that could be, but I wanted to kind of get your perspectives on it. You're on mute, Mike.

Michael Mills: Excuse me. First, I wanted to say something controversial because from my point of view, it is impossible to talk only about mental health, because there are four aspects to being human: the mental, emotional, physical and spiritual aspects. And there are very deep connections between the four, and you have to have a comprehensive perspective as an individual. So, we have to think. We must place emphasis and concentrate on all four aspects at the same time. In my view, it's really a good table, but as Iliana mentioned, there are [inaudible] four aspects. We need to think about social relationships and relationships with the Earth because it is really the connection with the Earth that [inaudible] a good frame of mind and that provides very good mental and physical, emotional and spiritual health. So, for me, it's really about ensuring good relationships, both socially and with the Earth, but also being aware of the interactions between the emotional, physical, mental and spiritual aspects.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Great. Thank you very much, Michael. Dylan, I wanted to turn to you next to be able to get your perspectives. Iliana has spoken to us about the need to be able to create space for people to be able to participate and to be able to kind of focus on Indigenous culture, talked about the challenges that are faced with some of the practices that are used in psychological therapy and services that are really focused on trying to focus on an individual instead of kind of a broader community, and the idea that, Elders can provide great perspective and insights. Michael just spoke about the importance not just of kind of the social element to it, but also kind of connection to the land as a means of having kind of an approach of mental health that is kind of holistic in terms of body, spirit, and mind and so on. But I want to turn to you in terms of your perspective of how the workplaces can better support mental health and the well-being of Indigenous employees by incorporating culturally relevant practices and approaches.

Dylan Jenkins: Well, I think thanks for the question, and I think that my colleagues have spoken to it very eloquently. And what I would add is, and I think this is for anyone, it's that we need to suspend judgment. And so, because we are in a bureaucratic space and we seem to be connected to all of these different, this policy, that policy, the policy on (inaudible) says this and the policy of that says that, they are policies, they're not, it's not hard law, it's, some of this can be opened up to interpretation. And I think that it really boils down to what I would say, collectively, character leadership. You as a leader and all of us as leaders, because we're all leaders to our, insert, in all different degrees, is the, to exercise compassion. That moment of, okay, what would I want in this moment. And if you don't know what this person is going through, suspend judgment. Because if you don't know, you don't know, and the more, the less you know, the more you make up, and we have a tendency to do that, and so, I'll give an example. When the, and I will say the trigger warning here, when the 215 were announced of our children that had been located, or believed to be located, that, and that impacted every First Nation, Métis and Inuit person, every single one, because of the interconnection, right? So, we've talked about that. And because we all have these stories, again it's the stories, the interconnection of our stories, and so the way in which we think, the word, "mental health," the way we are thinking, it's the feedback that we're getting.

So, how do we support Indigenous mental well-being in the workplace? Well, think about what are you putting out there? Are you putting out resistance? Are you putting a dismissiveness? Are you putting out…? That's going to create a place of fear, it's going to create a place of am I going to be punished or am I going to be rewarded? Don't weaponize policies, and I have seen that, that we have weaponized, well, according to this and according to that, let's, human beings be human. Again, as leaders we're leading people. It's not a file. We're not leading a policy, we're leading people. And there's cultural experiences that are going to happen that are going to have impacts, of course, there is the intergenerational trauma. And so, I think that, quite frankly, if we started practicing more that trauma-informed approach to management, to leadership, everybody benefits from that. And it really just starts with not just cognitive empathy like "I'm sorry to hear that", but effective, because that person should feel that they are supported, that they are cared about, that we understand, we may not fully understand but we know that they are feeling something and thinking in, you just go, "Okay, something's going on here. My job isn't to judge and decide if it's real bad or if it's not. It's what can I do? Tell me more. What can I do to support you? " Ultimately, it's you ask the person, because it's within, and it's okay, well, I'm connected to this.

So, I had a situation where it turned out that this person's mental health, and First Nations person's mental health, was just really, it was tanking. And I wasn't quite sure where this was kind of coming from, but I could, I was noticing it. And so, I simply acknowledged. I said, "It appears to me…" I didn't judge, I used discernment. I said, "It appears to me you're struggling. Did you want to talk about it? " And in that moment, he said yes, we went into the boardroom and it was just tears, upon tears, upon tears. And so, to Iliana's point, give space. And yeah, we're not trained in mental health trauma, but I would encourage everyone, there is a module for mental health first aid about Indigenous peoples, Indigenous communities. I would encourage that for all public servants to take because there are nuances that go a little bit beyond just the human experience. And so I say, how do we support? We learn how to support. And we do that by asking, by being vulnerable ourselves and not thinking we have to solve the problem, but empower, as I say, say, "What do you want for the outcome for this and how can I assist? "

Lorenzo Ieraci: Great. Thank you for that. Those are helpful insights. We are, I am being mindful of the time. We will have time, maybe, to kind of have one more question answered, and it'll pick up on some of the things that have already kind of been mentioned. Dylan, you highlighted and spoke about the fact that people need to make sure that they're being supported, that they're not being judged, and the mental first aid, mental health first aid, pardon me, training is something that is helpful. One of the things that we often hear is that, oftentimes, unfortunately, those who are Indigenous and Indigenous employees might be faced with or facing microaggression and unconscious bias. And I recognize that before you talked about give people space that you don't necessarily need to have kind of a saviour come in, you talked about the behaviour and making sure that that behaviour, which would be inappropriate for anybody, regardless of what it is, that we're kind of taking care of that, but obviously, this is something that is a concern in terms of microaggressions and conscious bias. So, how can we kind of proactively address some of these challenges that Indigenous employees kind of face? So, I'll give everybody the opportunity to provide a response to this question, and then we'll start to kind of wrap it up. So, Dylan, since you kind of answered the last question with a bit of a lead in, I don't know if I can maybe ask you to kind of continue on that one?

Dylan Jenkins: Yeah, sure. I think that, first of all, I think that we can't prevent microaggressions and we certainly have no way of preventing unconscious biases because those are unconscious and the person's not even aware that they have them. But what we can do is acknowledge and accept that this is what happens. So, I've had an experience where somebody said, "There's a," at a particular department, "this doesn't seem to be any racism here." And I thought, well, that's quite rich, you are non-Indigenous individual saying that there doesn't seem to be racism against Indigenous peoples. Again, that's the blinders, the myopia that we sometimes gather, the cognitive dissonance. So, we can't prevent it. So, that that self, and that self alone was a microaggression, like it's gaslighting, it's institutional gaslighting. So, we can address institutional gaslighting by saying, "No, it happens here." And it's leadership who has to say that, and that takes vulnerability, and takes bravery and honesty to say, "It happens here, and it's hurtful, and it's harmful and it is no longer tolerated." Most of us as adults are fully aware of what we are saying, and what we are doing and what the impact of that is going to be. I would say that most public servants are good people, and what I mean by that, not nice people, they're good people. They know that you treat people with respect, you treat people with compassion, and kindness and understanding. And so, microaggressions often come from, my goodness, my father had plenty that if I was to still speak of how my father spoke back in the 70's and 80's, it's like Archie Bunker, and that's dating myself.

Ask First Nations people, Métis people, Inuit people, Middle Eastern people, ask anybody, "What are some things you hear that you consider to be a microaggression? " Because it shouldn't come from somebody who hasn't had that kind of experience. It has to come from the (inaudible), so for example, somebody calling me chief. Don't call me chief, that's a microaggression, "But I didn't mean that." And oftentimes, people don't mean it. They didn't understand that there was a connotation, a negative connotation to that at the time, and it doesn't necessarily have it now, but it's the disconnect in that journey of growth and understanding. So, microaggressions change over time. So, we always have to be mindful of that, and really just learn, ask. If somebody… Here's an example, somebody said, "Canada, it's lands," and he had said, "The First Nations take care of it. We have and we enjoy the bounty." I was like, "Goodness, somebody better speak to the speechwriter on that one." So, it's the language that we use can be very outdated to where we are now, and I think we as people, we have moved ahead, but sometimes our vernacular hasn't. And that's where a lot of the micro-aggressions come from, that it's the meaning of it now. In terms of unconscious biases, I think people just need to be calling people out and do so without fear because you're speaking truth. And when you do that, then suddenly it also addresses your micro-aggressions issue, and suddenly this person has to clue in and go like, "Oh, oh…" And if they meant it, then if they don't fix that, if they don't want to correct that, well, I guess they knew that to begin with.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Great. Thank you, Dylan. And I see that our colleagues have put the spotlight on. We're going to turn to Elder Verna in just a couple of moments. But before doing so, I do want to give both Michael and Iliana the opportunity from their perspectives to be able to give their inputs in terms of microaggression. So, Michael, maybe briefly, and then we'll just turn to Iliana.

Michael Mills: I'll try to be really quick. I think the biggest bias that we need to come to is that there is not one truth and there's not one superior knowledge. I think we are predominantly in kind of a Western knowledge system where we kind of view like scientific knowledge, academic acknowledge as being superior, and I think people will need to understand our traditional knowledge. They don't need to understand a thing, but they need to give it respect and also give appreciation that it's legitimate, it's equal, it's just different. And so, I think if we can get people to do that, that will be huge. On a practical one, I just want to come back to this, because I forgot to say, is that the government has introduced, I know we've, Dylan mentioned policies, or we shouldn't have policies driving stuff, but there has been a positive policy. There's a policy where the government is actually giving leave for cultural, traditional cultural practices. And this is a place where we can actually see, ask managers to just take the leap of faith and say that they don't need to understand why going on the land is therapeutic, they don't need to understand why fishing is so important, they don't need to understand why hunting is so important. All they need to do is say, is, "We got you. This is your time. No question asked. Hope this, you have a wonderful time out there and look forward to hearing about it when you get back." If we can have people with that attitude, they don't need to understand whether that knowledge is good, they don't understand why it's medicine, but if they can just be encouraging and supportive for people to take advantage of that wonderful policy change that has been made, that will be super helpful.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you, Michael. Iliana, for your part, were there any last things you wanted to say or respond to regarding microaggressions?

Iliana Lauriston: I would quickly say that often, people who come from Indigenous communities who have federal jobs, often they are the only ones in their community to have one. They cannot talk with other people, have sharing circles with other people. This being the case, well, imagine you're walking in a forest, and all sorts of things happen to you. There are things that happen that you don't expect. It stands out. Well, what do we do when that happens? We observe. This is what I often recommend to people.

Observe what is happening around you. React when it's time to react. Don't react when it's not time to react. And one tip that I give a lot—more and more—which is very important, is when we go to work, we as human beings, we have maybe 200, in any case, we have many, many emotions, but we don't bring our 200 emotions to work. We bring a small bag with no more than 10 emotions. So, you choose the 10 emotions that you're going to bring with you, whether it's a feel-good emotion, a performance emotion, or whatever you choose. Then you work with those emotions, and the rest, but you observe. If this observation becomes too burdensome and you have too many of these microaggressions, obviously, seek help and support. But otherwise, it remains a place of work, and you learn, then you develop quietly.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you so much. Thank you, colleagues. So, with that, why don't we turn to Elder Verna for the closing words?

[01:54:21 Elder Verna Mcgregor is shown once again.]

Elder Verna Mcgregor: Miigwech, Lorenzo, and to all the panelists, really. I really enjoyed the discussion and listening in. and I was. it has you thinking too as well. One of the things too as well, one of the things I was going to look into too as well is even, especially in a federal government, you're accommodating the one person, you ADM, your Deputy Minister, the Minister, and sometimes though, as well, you forget about that also too, how do you balance that you're accommodating the collective? And I think Dylan raised that as well. So, that's where, that's awareness. I was at a Circle yesterday too, we closed with a Circle, and I was just surprised too as well, not surprised, it was a way of people to release sometimes the pressure that they went through with their training for the past two days. So, again, that wouldn't happened 20 years ago, even 25 years ago, even ten years ago.

The other part, really quickly too, I was also part of this final consultation, and what I mentioned too as well, is sometimes to as well, when you're talking about the science, there's a qualitative quantitative, and they always focus on the quantitative, the science-based numbers-based, but you need to qualitative too as well, and again, because it brings different learning that then it's also backed by the quantitative, and we are more sometimes through the power of story, is quantitative that drives this side, other research too, and actually brings in change. The other, quickly though too as well, with this other researcher that I, from Harvard, that I sat with, he said that we're in the age of, first of all, information, but now we're in the age of configuration, that we're bombarded with so much information, so much policy, the people that will move forward is the ones that can configure all that and bring forward also solutions and innovation. So, on that note, and also innovation, as I always said to students, comes from spirit. And that's why we say, "I send you good prayers," and I put my little tobacco down for you, because innovation comes from that and that's comes from also Circle, but also then the scientific and your knowledge.

So, I say, (speaks in Indigenous language).

I said it to you in French, thank you four times. I say thank you four times to honour all of you, and I think you did a wonderful conversation today. Miigwech, everybody.

Lorenzo Ieraci: Thank you very much, Elder Verna. And this brings today's event to a close. So, on behalf of the Canada School of Public Service, I'd like to thank Elder Verna, our distinguished guests, Michael, Dylan and Iliana, as well as all of you from across the country, for being part of today's discussion.

I hope you enjoyed today's event and leave feeling inspired. The School has more events and courses to offer. So, of course, you are encouraged to visit the School's website to keep up to date and to register for all future learning opportunities that are of interest to you. So, once again, a very big thank you and I hope you all have a great day and a wonderful weekend. Thank you very much.

[01:58:10 The CSPS logo appears onscreen.]

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