The Role of Managers Throughout the Procurement Process (FON1-V55)

Transcript: The Role of Managers Throughout the Procurement Process

[00:00:00 Animated CSPS logo appears. Text on screen: Webcast.]

[00:00:06 Emilio Franco appears full screen. Text on screen: Emilio Franco, Executive Director, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat.]

Emilio Franco: Good afternoon and welcome to this Canada School of Public Service event, on the role of managers throughout the procurement process.

Emilio Franco: Hello. My name is Emilio Franco and I am the Executive Director of the Procurement and Materiel Directorate of the Office of the Comptroller General of the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat.

I will begin by acknowledging that the lands on which we gather today are traditional, unceded territories of the Algonquin Anishinaabe peoples. I know that the participants come from different regions of the country and therefore may work on different Indigenous territories. I invite you to reflect on the territory you are located in for a few moments.

This is a bilingual session. So please feel free to use the official language of your choice for question time. For this session I have the pleasure of being joined by my colleagues Maxime, Marie-Hélène and Nausheena who will introduce themselves in a few moments.

Today's discussion focuses on the role of managers throughout the procurement process. We approach it from the distinct angle of procurement managers who have a rich experience in acquiring goods and services. Our conversation will teach you the importance of collaboration between managers and other expert public servants and how to meet operational needs while respecting policies and the valuesand ethics principles.

Today, you'll hear the term business owner used frequently. And this is a term not to be confused with the owner of a business or a supplier, but really a business owner, in the federal public service context, is a public servant responsible for the business or program area for which a procurement is established.

Business owners actually have distinct responsibilities outlined in the Treasury Board's Directive on the Management Procurement. Responsible for defining capabilities, intended business outcomes, and the achievement of those business outcomes and benefits following implementation. In other words, the business owner is the person ultimately accountable for the decision to procure and its outcomes.

Most of the time, this is the manager with the budget. Most managers will procure something during their career and assume that role of a business owner.

Most of the time you make small purchases using an acquisition card or credit card, for example to buy paper or office supplies. Your area's procurement team will likely not be involved, but it is nevertheless a procurement activity. However, every now and then you will need to buy something a little more complex. Perhaps you need to hire a consultant to write a report, purchase new equipment for your lab, or acquire new software to lead an operational transformation.

Whether you procure regularly, or it's your first time, this can be daunting, and you may not know everything you need to do. But that's why every department has a procurement team – procurement experts – there to help you along the way. As you'll hear during this session, we encourage you to engage them early and often.

At the same time, when the procurement folks get involved, it's not "over to you" procurement. As a business owner, as a manager, you have important responsibilities that you're not absolved of. The decision to buy, what you're buying, ensuring it gets delivered, and importantly, how you conduct yourself with vendors are all core responsibilities that you maintain. And, of course, whenever there's money involved, risks about integrity and conflict of interest can clearly follow.

We'll be paying particular attention to this in our discussions, as I'm sure many of you are here today to find out how you can stay out of trouble when procuring. I'm sure with the Auditor General's reports from this week, it's fresh on our minds.

But don't worry. Today, we are not here to scare you away. We're here to equip you on how to deal with these scenarios while, to be honest, instilling a healthy dose of fear. I needed to respect the rules, sense danger, and navigate challenges. Just like a heavy piece of equipment, if you know how to use the tool, it can be very good and very safe and very helpful, but also a little bit dangerous if you're not using it carefully.

[00:04:43 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage in a discussion panel format.]

Emilio Franco: Without further ado, I will now turn the floor over to the panellists to introduce themselves and give you a very brief overview of their respective roles in the procurement field. We will start with Maxime.

Maxime Thauvette: Thank you, Emilio. So, I am Maxime Thauvette, Executive Director at ESDC, Employment and Social Development Canada.

[00:04:52 Maxime Thauvette appears full screen. Text on screen: Maxime Thauvette, Executive Director, Employment and Social Development Canada.]

Maxime Thauvette: I am in charge of procurement, material management, procurement policy for the Department of ESDC.

I've been with them for about 18 months. Before coming to ESDC, I spent a little more than 15 years at Public Works in procurement. I have worked on several major projects, including with Emilio on our purchasing and procurement system. I then worked on the Benefits Delivery Modernization program at ESDC, which is a type of program to renew the software that is behind benefit payments to Canadians, whether it is for employment insurance, old age insurance, things like that. Then, just before moving to ESDC, I spent a year on the dental care program, which was a government priority. So we put a contract in place with the company that helps manage this government priority. I have therefore spent my entire career in procurement. So I have seen a lot and I have some good advice. I have met some good clients, some good business owners over the years. I am therefore excited to have this conversation today.

[00:06:13 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: Merci Maxime. Marie-Hélène, you're our representative of the manager community today.

If you want to introduce yourself please.

Marie-Hélène Brisson: Yes. Marie-Hélène Brisson. I am the National Director of Visitor Experience for Parks Canada. I am the anomaly on the panel today. I have been at Parks for 10 years and that is mainly where I have my experience as a business manager for several contracts. Some of you may have booked camping in your life when going to national parks. This is one of the very large contracts that my team manages, for example, or such as interpretive exhibits. All sorts of things that relate to the 23 million visitors who come to Parks Canada each year. These are national contracts; multiple provinces and territories use these contracts. So, a lot of challenges. I am therefore looking forward to sharing that experience with you today.

[00:06:25 Marie-Hélène Brisson appears full screen. Text on screen: Marie-Hélène Brisson, Director, Parks Canada.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: Nausheena.

[00:07:03 Nausheena Wright appears full screen. Text on screen: Nausheena Wright, Acting Director General, Health.]

Emilio Franco: Nausheena.

Nausheena Wright: Hello, everyone. My name is Nausheena Wright. I'm currently the Acting Director General of Procurement and Investment Management at Health Canada. I have been at Health for about 10 years, mostly in Procurement, but I have recently expanded my horizons, and I'm now doing, not only procurement operations and procurement policy reporting and oversight, but also investment planning and project management, and I also have material management under myself as well.

At Health, we are in a shared services partnership, so we serve both Health Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada, and we provide centralized procurement services for both. I've been in procurement since day one in the government. I entered in as an intern officer through at PSPC and have had a couple of stints at Statistics Canada and Natural Resources Canada, but finally landed at Health, which I love. Thanks for having me.

[00:07:55 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: So, the first – we'll have a bit of a question-and-answer period with the panel, and then we'll be opening up the floor to questions. So, if you're online, please get your questions ready in the chat. In the room, just get yourselves ready. We will have microphones.

So, just to kick things off, managers that are in the room listening in, they've probably been hearing a lot about procurement in the news. They're wondering, am I doing procurement? Do I have responsibilities? When does that really kick in?

So, for Maxime and then Marie-Hélène, at what point does a manager become the business owner? What are their main roles and responsibilities and what skills do they need to manage the most significant risks in the procurement process?

Maxime Thauvette: This is a good question. This is a question that is often raised by our clients. We call our business owners, our clients, in procurement. Well, it's a question that is basically very simple. Are you the person who needs a thing or a service? That is where you really become a business owner.

[00:09:07 Maxime Thauvette appears full screen.]

Maxime Thauvette: A business owner, as we call them in English. Once you essentially identify a need for either goods or services, for your program, for whatever you're trying to run in your department, as a public servant, that's where you become a business owner.

What does that mean? Obviously, this brings with it a range of responsibilities and roles to play. I would say that the first role actually, the biggest one, is really, basically: Do you need procurement? So, the first thing you have to ask yourself when you become a business owner, when you have a need, is: Is the way to fulfill that need, to get this service or this good, by making a procurement? And I am not saying that because I want to reduce the volumes of my team, because we do not want to make procurements, but that is really the question you have to ask yourself at the base. The reason is simple, there are many ways to obtain things at the government. Then, Emilio talked about it, you often see procurements in the news, which are picked up in the newspapers. Often, it is either because there were mistakes or maybe procurement was not the best way to get those services. So that is the question you should ask yourself in the first place. Then it is something you do every day without thinking about it.

I was talking with Emilio and Nausheena before I sat down here, and just to get here, I made the decision as a business owner about how I get to the venue. I could have paid to take the train, which is a train service procurement; I could have walked where it would have cost me nothing. I decided to go for the parking lot. Take my car, then pay, do a procurement to pay for parking.

So that is definitely the first thing to ask yourself. Then, in how you are going to buy things, that is where your procurement services are going to help you. We are trained, my team, we are trained to know all the policies, all the rules of procurement. Then, in making your decisions, well, we will remind you: Have you thought about accessibility standards; have you thought about the green policy, the green procurement?

It applies even in my example. I could have, to be greener, I could have chosen to take my bicycle, to come here by bicycle. Accessibility standards, how I was to get to the office. This is more or less the role of procurement officers. But for you as a business owner, it is really: Do I have a need; and then secondly, if you identify that yes, I do have a need, can you explain it well? And I am not just saying for yourself, to reassure you in your program. But if you talk to your friends, if you talk to your family, people you meet on the street on weekends, can they understand that government money was used to buy the thing you need? Is this the most environmentally friendly way to get what you need? Was it done in an open, fair way where everyone had a chance to participate in your procurement process?

So, these are questions you need to ask yourself as a business owner.

I will stop there to let Marie-Hélène [speak] a little bit, but I can talk a little bit more later about the type of responsibilities and roles as such.

[00:12:18 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: To add a little to what Maxime said, when I am asked the question: From what point? Well, it is day one. When I talk to my managers or supervisors who have contractual responsibilities,

[00:12:27 Marie-Hélène Brisson appears full screen.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: On the first day I want them to be involved. It's not the procurement team that is going to approach us and say, "You need a new point of sale system;" we need to approach you.

So, from the first day, if we want the product—that explains a bit what you were saying too. If you want the product you need to be exactly what you want, you have to be involved from the start. I do not expect my team or myself to have the complex knowledge that you have in procurement in terms of laws and all that. However, I know my obligations and my financial authorities and I expect that we generally know the various types of tools.

But it is really the Parks Canada procurement team that will equip us and help us with this along with other procurement teams when we need to work with Public Works or the Treasury Board. But I would never have a contract put in place where my team is not involved, because we represent, as I said earlier, the 23 million visitors who come to our sites, so to have a quality product that is worth it.

The other thing I often repeat is that as a director, it is my authority; I am the one who signs the contracts and I always ask myself the question, Maxime just said it: If my director is asked to go to Parliament to justify the contract that I have just signed, am I comfortable? And when I have a doubt, then we have to go back to the drawing board where we have to sit down together, because that means it won't work. I think it is really, really important to ask these questions.

[00:13:54 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Maxime Thauvette: I think something you also touched on that is important, you mentioned to define [inaudible], to define that. This is a role that is extremely important as a business owner.

Maxime Thauvette: As a business owner, one of your key responsibilities is defining exactly what you're trying to procure.

[00:14:11 Maxime Thauvette appears full screen.]

Maxime Thauvette: I'm not saying... That doesn't mean I'm talking about putting hundreds of pages of requirements and going all the way down to the little bolts and nuts of everything you want to buy. But it's about being clear. If you're trying to buy a table, for example, not just write a statement of order that says, I need a table. Well, do you want a round table like this one? Do you want a square table? Do you want it to be this high, this high? How many legs do you want? These are the things I think you need to consider as well as a business owner. Marie-Hélène talked about it. Our team is there to support you, but we are not technical experts in what you buy.

We know procurement very well. We are experts in that. But you are always, and as a business owner, will always be the expert in the widget that you're buying or the services that you're buying. So, it's on you to really be clear about what you buy. I think we've all seen those drawings where it's like the architect does a drawing and then the contractor, what he builds, and then at the end, what the client really wanted, and then none of the images match. That summarizes the role as a business owner in terms of making sure you're clear in terms of what you want once you've assessed that, yes, procurement is the way we want to go forward.

[00:15:23 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: And so, Nausheena, a lot of the time, managers will... They're approaching this for the first time. They don't know how to define requirements. They don't know, so they're going to need help. And so, Marie-Hélène and Maxime have already started to talk about that collaboration between the business owner and the procurement team and engaging at the very beginning. So, can you elaborate on some good procurement planning and some good examples of where that can really result in success and how that collaboration can help address problems before they arise?

[00:15:56 Nausheena Wright appears full screen.]

Nausheena Wright: Yes, absolutely. And before I give some examples, I want to clarify, procurement planning is not just about enhancing your timelines and making sure that you can get your project or contract in place – sorry, I'm saying project because I just switched to project management, and I have to get back to the contracting world – to get your contract in place, the date that you wanted. But it's also about having success at the end of the day and also, not only engaging with your contracting authorities, but also other key stakeholders along the way so that you can get to that success point.

I think the process is really designed to support you. It's to allow you to think about all of the ground that you may need to cover that you may not have thought of from the first place. It will allow you to look at key risks that you'll have to navigate, any policy obligations, and also to look at your departmental priorities to ensure they're aligned with what you want to buy.

The early and ongoing collaboration will help identify procurement strategies from the get-go. It could identify risks, such as sole-sourcing, or contracts with former public servants, or any potential conflicts and how to mitigate those. And then also, the early engagement of key stakeholders like those in IT; security; privacy; accessibility; legal; the list goes on and on. Strong planning also allows us to look at the contracting perspective in terms of our overall objectives and policy goals across the Government of Canada, such as opportunities to work with Indigenous businesses, environmental considerations, as well as socio and economic priorities.

One other thing that you may not think about, too, in terms of procurement planning, and that we're looking at Health, is we'll look at the whole plan and see if there's any commonalities across all of the input that we get from our branches. So, if everyone wants to buy the same table, then maybe we can do one large procurement for the entire department and achieve economies of scale there and better value for money as well for Canadians.

In terms of an example, I do have one, and it's still live, it's still ongoing, and we're working through it. At Health, we do have a few projects that we have on the go that require some support from IT consultants and professional services. But this is a spicy topic because, as we probably all know, we are all trying to reduce our reliance on professional services, especially within IT. That's a broader initiative going on. But the reality is we still have some, right now, that are midstream projects that require that support. We can't switch to an SBIPS right now, for example.

So, what we've done is we've collaborated with a few of our key stakeholders to plan out what those projects need. Key stakeholders include our digital transformation branch within Health Canada, our project management office, our business owners, of course, and the project managers, and procurement. And we're looking at an assessment of that. We're planning out what we will need, and we're going out strategically out on the street to make sure they're focused requirements that are going out and not umbrella contracts, if you will.

So, this is, of course, allowing for us to reduce the risk of not having that coverage, but also having a transformative approach that is still compliant with what we're trying to achieve in this space.

[00:19:11 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: Yes, and actually, consultants is a very current thing to bring up. It's an opportunity for me to highlight that Treasury Board did release a manager's guide. So, not for the procurement officer, but for managers on key considerations when procuring professional services. And it asks a lot of the questions that we've already been talking about today, which is, first of all, do you really you need that consultant? Could you hire someone? Can you do a temporary student, another resource? Is there an alternative? Before you even buy, have you thought about alternatives?

For example, we often hear that managers say, Well, I don't have the budget. I have an operating budget, but I don't have salary.

But if you work with your finance officers, they can make an operational transfer to salary.

You can do a transfer from salary to operational. These are things that you can do to enable. That's always the first question.

And then, what outcome are you trying to achieve? We often approach professional services by saying, Oh, I need a project manager. Well, what do you actually need as an outcome? What are you trying to achieve? And that way you're not just managing someone that's just sitting there waiting for you to give them work, but they actually have something that [they can] execute against. They have an outcome they have to deliver on. And then when you finally pay them, you're paying them not for them sitting at a desk or virtual, but you're actually paying them for what they produce. So, you're getting better value out of what they've achieved.

And so, these are things that are highlighted in our manager's guide. I encourage everyone to take a look. Also some nice little tips about how to manage the relationship with consultants as you go through that, because we will still be using consultants, but of course, a hard look at how we use them and how we contract for them – really important to reduce our reliance on those consultants.

Maxime Thauvette: I think, too, you mentioned the manager's guide. The role of a business owner, I think, well, the term business owner is fairly new from a policy perspective. The role has always been there, but us addressing it, I think that shift or change in terms of the role that the business owner plays has evolved over time as well.

I think back to when I started in procurement, and you mentioned a little bit in your opening remarks, it was like, Okay, I need to buy a consultant.

[00:21:22 Maxime Thauvette appears full screen.]

Maxime Thauvette: I need a project manager. It went to procurement. And then you were begging for your client to come to the table and help you out in and procuring it. I think those policies being updated comes out with more and more there's a recognition that as a business owner, it's no longer "give it to procurement" and then when they find me my person, they'll tell me my contract's in place, and I can get to work. I think your role as a business owner is throughout the process. And then even after the contract is awarded, especially, you play a very large role in terms of managing the contract.

Your contracting authorities are there to support you, but you're the ones – we'll take the consultant example – you're the ones dealing with the project manager, getting the reports, getting the work that they're doing. And if there's any issues with it, you're the ones that are responsible for flagging those to the contracting authority who can then advise you on how we want to proceed.

More and more, you hear as well in the news or in any articles about it's getting value for what they're buying. That's something that should be at the back of your mind constantly. So, if you're paying for a project manager that we're paying $3,000 a day, and as Emilio was just saying, he's sitting there waiting for you to give him work, go back to what Marie-Hélène mentioned, would you tell your deputy to go to the parliament and explain that? How we paid someone $3,000 a day to sit in our office and wait for us to find work?

I think that responsibility doesn't stop at, Okay, I've identified my outcome, I've identified what I need. I wrote it down in a nice statement of work for them. All right, procurement, go and get my contract, and we'll see you in a few months. I think that it's important to keep in mind that your role goes throughout the whole process, even all the way through contract closeout.

[00:22:58 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: Absolutely. So, we're going to turn to a bit of procurement side/manager side for the next question. We'll start with Marie-Hélène, then Nausheena. So, we'll start with you, Marie-Hélène. What are the biggest challenges you have faced as a manager who has responsibilities for [goods] involved in procurement?

[00:23:22 Marie-Hélène Brisson appears full screen.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: In recent years, it has been mainly because we have renewed huge contracts sequentially, like, at the same time, somewhat aligned. It was about making our senior management team understand that you cannot do a contract on the corner of a desk. It feels like it is always a task that is just like, "well this is going to be easy, at any rate, I am going to give it to the procurement officer."

That is a bit what Maxime was saying earlier. Which is not true when you are the person responsible for the contract. Because generally, if we seek these contracts, it is because we want to innovate; it is because we want to improve a service. So if that is the case, well, we have to be really involved in its development, in its implementation and also in seeing the follow-ups afterwards.

So, one of the things that was a good challenge for us was to make people understand that we needed a specific team, not very big, four to five people, to renew the online reservation, point of sale and online sales services. But often I was asked every year: Well, you're finished now, it's all good. Can they return? No, it's long. It took us seven years to finally realize, as a management team, that once you have finished a contract, they can do something else—another contract, like, another contract right after? Yes, there is another contract coming right after. Because after four years, we look at our option years and renew. But these people have immersed themselves in the subject, and now they are very familiar with both the relationship with the procurement team and their responsibilities in terms of digital services, with our digital team at Parks.

So the value of having people who are not procurement experts but can navigate project management—Nausheena talked about this earlier. A bit like that. That was my biggest challenge to say: Okay, but it is never going to happen if we leave them on the corner of a desk. It is always going to be the last thing we think of doing and we are going to make mistakes and we are going to have contracts that are maybe worth too much, or we are going to have a consultant sitting around doing nothing. So, if we really want to get value for what we pay, we also have to invest our teams' time in it.

[00:25:19 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: That's right, and we often find—not often, but we find that managers really need to know that they need to pay attention to the contract, to the deliverables.

[00:25:31 Emilio Franco appears full screen.]

Emilio Franco: When the contract is in place, procurement officers are not often involved, it is really the manager.

And so, one of the things that the managers really need to be aware of is that the management of the deliverable, making sure the work is getting done, making sure that the report that was written, you've reviewed it, and it's what you've expected, and it's meeting the quality, the requirements, and so on. That's the manager's responsibility. It's not the procurement officer's responsibility.

If there's issues, procurement gets involved, and you can navigate maybe a tough discussion with the vendor saying, No, I'm sorry. What you delivered does not meet the requirements, and we're not going to pay you until it meets that standard. But that's the manager's job. You can't just be waiting on the sideline. You have to be making sure you're diligent. If you've got time sheets, that you're looking at them, was the time worked? Making sure it's documented on file, as we're seeing in some of the audits, things that may have been absent. But what's coming out in the audits is really, did we get value? As we keep saying, did we get value?

So, that's the manager's responsibility, making sure we got value and making sure that we documented that we did our diligence, ensuring that what was delivered was the value that we expected.

[00:26:43 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Maxime Thauvette: That second point is key, I think, documenting it, right? And I don't want to jump in, Nausheena.

Nausheena Wright: You guys are stealing my thunder.

Maxime Thauvette: I'll let you talk to your boss. But documenting it is this key point in terms of the responsibility of a business owner to make sure that when there's an audit and you've left the department, that we still have the documentation that, Oh, Yes, we did get value for this contract. But I'll let... Sorry, Nausheena.

Emilio Franco: Over to Nausheena. What are you seeing – and you can talk about documentation as well, because this is probably one of the biggest challenges – but what are you seeing as a challenge as the managers that you're dealing with are facing from your vantage point?

Nausheena Wright: Yes, and I think since the beginning, we've touched on in a few areas. So, one is I do find sometimes business owners are not super knowledgeable about procurement, simply because maybe they only do one or two contracts a year, if that.

[00:27:30 Nausheena Wright appears full screen.]

Nausheena Wright: And then during that one year, procurement can change. I mean, in the last two years, procurement has changed enormously in terms of our policy requirements and whatnot. So, keeping up with that is nearly impossible for someone who's doing it maybe on the side of their desk, or does it once or two times a year. So, I think that unfamiliarity with the procurement rules can be a challenge. I see it often. And then, of course, compliant documentation to support that.

Sometimes I see that business needs are not clearly defined from the forefront, and then that can lead to many challenges down the road. If your statement of work from the beginning is not clear, and then you didn't get what you asked for at the end of the day, then you're not getting value for money, and you may have to start the whole procurement process over again to get what you actually wanted, let alone dealing with the vendor performance issues, if there are any. The unclear business requirements can have a lot of effects, such as scope creep as well, vendor lock-in, procurement delays, or mismanagement at the end of the day.

Another thing I find sometimes is conflicting heads, I guess, between procurement and the business owner, because sometimes we're looked at as a barrier, or the bad guys. But what we really are is your strategic enabler. We're trying to help you. We're a partner. We are not your enemy. We're your friends. If we help you, you help us, because I think we all want to get to the same point. We want you to be successful in your contract, but we also want the contract to be in alignment with our legislation and policies and compliance. So, we all want the same thing, and it's easier if we work together rather than separately. And early engagement and procurement planning helps with that. I'll put that pin in there.

One other item I see often is in terms of security, privacy, and compliance, these are new spaces, I think, or new-ish spaces for some business owners, and they don't realize the implications that it could have on their procurement, and they don't plan for it accordingly. So, that could lead to unplanned delays, especially with IT, I find. So, if you find that that could be a part of your process, make sure to engage early so that you can avoid those surprises later on.

And another one I had was in terms of the side desk. It's your side job, which is natural, but that means that you have to lean more heavily on your procurement advisors and your experts. Most departments have checklists or centres of expertise that you can tap into, so make sure you go to them.

And the last one I had is about articulating value for money, which you almost also touched on, Emilio. And that leads back to the strong definition of your requirement, strong evaluation criteria. If you're lacking in those areas, it will have a trickle effect when your contract is awarded and you're seeing it's not being as fruitful as you wanted it to be, or the outcomes are not where you want it to be, and they don't reflect what you want.

So, how can you mitigate these? What can you do? Engage early. Early collaboration, not only with procurement, but with your key stakeholders in those areas that I've already mentioned. Plan, plan, plan as much as you can. I know it's really hard, but it will help you at the end of the day. It will help those around you that are touching on your procurement process as well.

Make sure that you can have as clearly defined statements of work and procurement evaluation criteria if you are going competitive. It's based on what Max said. It doesn't have to be 100 pages, but it has to be clear and concise, so that the industry knows what you want as well.

Participate in sessions like this. So, go to training. There's a lot that's offered out there, and there's a lot of great resources. Take that upon yourselves to do that and talk with those within your department as well. There's probably resources you don't even know that are there that are available. And the Directive on the Management of Procurement does have very clear information about what your accountabilities are in procurement, as well as some annexes that are specific to professional services. So, please take a look at that.

And then, in terms of monitoring the contract and vendor performance, Emilio mentioned that you have an obligation throughout the entire duration of the contract, from start to end, to monitor the deliverables that you asked for. If you see problems, flag them immediately to contracting. They will help you to figure out what to do as a next step. They may even engage legal with you, things like that. So, don't be scared. We're here to help support.

[00:31:59 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: And I find that, often, we try to be good Canadians with our suppliers sometimes. Friendly, we don't want to upset them, but vendors – we can have friendly relationships with them – but they have financial interests in mind. Our job is to protect the financial interests of the Crown. And so, you don't have to accept a deliverable that isn't good quality. Work with your contracting officer if you feel that there's a big issue here that needs to be resolved. But don't be afraid to push back. I know they bring their high-priced talent to the room, and they sometimes are intimidating in their fancy suits, or otherwise. But push back. Protect the Crown. That's your job as a manager.

Where we really don't get good value is when we accept the thing that we're not going to use because it wasn't what we were looking for. That's the worst. The report that goes on the shelf because it wasn't quite good, but we'll just accept it and move on – that's poor value for money.

You also talked about the security aspect and we noted in the Director General's report that security is an element that is not always in line with the processes. We need to check that security codes are in place for suppliers and consultants before they start work.

Managers have a lot of responsibilities that go beyond just procurement. Security; accessibility; environmental; all sorts of policies. And so, it's tough. And procurement is there to help you with certain ones.

But you mentioned earlier, Nausheena, the involvement of all your other stakeholders. And so, if you've got people coming in on a contract, talk to your security office. What do we need to be doing? Is there anything that needs to be in place before they start? What do we need to check? Are there any restrictions on what they can do when they're in on what equipment they can touch? Can they access the network? These are things that you have experts in your organization there to help you, make sure that you're following the rules because there's lots of different rules. Managers aren't expected to know all of them. But as a manager, you are expected to know where to go to get help. And that's the core piece.

Emilio Franco: So for the last question, before we turn to questions from the participants. Based on your experience, based on your experience – we're starting to be touching on that integrity element a little bit – how do we ensure that procurements are done with the utmost integrity, particularly in the context of heightened sensitivity security? As I mentioned in the beginning, procurement has gotten quite scary. It's fine if you get the right help, but that healthy dose of fear. Let's talk a little bit about integrity in procurement. I'll start with Maxime.

Maxime Thauvette: This is a good question. Well, I was talking a little earlier about the role that has evolved, then, in your updates with the Treasury Board policies.

[00:35:05 Maxime Thauvette appears full screen. Text on screen: Maxime Thauvette, Executive Director, Employment and Social Development Canada.]

Maxime Thauvette: In connection with the business owner's role and also the values and ethics side which often comes up. So I think, when we talk about making procurements with integrity so it does not end up in the news for the wrong reasons—it is okay to be in the news for the right reasons—but it starts with you obviously, with the individuals who are involved in the process. As public servants, we all have a responsibility to follow the Values and Ethics Code; this is even more important when we do things with the public, including suppliers, or to deliver services for the public. So I think it starts there.

You mentioned there's a lot of procurement rules and guidelines, and it can be scary. There's a thing I like to say, and I think some of my colleagues have heard me say this many times in our department, but procurement is not there to put sticks in your wheels. We recognize that our role is not directly to provide services to Canadians. We're there to support you in your job as running programs that ultimately benefit Canadians. I guarantee you there's no one on my team, and I'm going to speak for Nausheena's team, that sits there in the morning and thinks about ways "how can we complicate life for our business? Can we slow this program down and then just go and have a beer and laugh about it afterwards?"

That's not the procurement role.

But we are really not here to put a spanner in the works. What we do is basically to protect you. Our role is a bit like that. We have policies, regulations and guides that are developed with the ultimate goal of ensuring that you do not end up in the news because you did something unknowingly. I think we have talked several times, today, about how we are saying that our business owners are not familiar with procurement. This is not meant in a bad way, it is because that is not your role, just like I am not an expert in security, human resources or anything. We are procurement experts and when we say, "No, you should not do that," it is not because we want to make your life difficult, it is really to protect you.

When we talk about conducting procurement processes with integrity, I think it obviously starts with that, but also with openness and transparency. I often compare it to someone who confides in their lawyer and then tells them what they want to do, but it stays between the two of us. It can be similar with procurement officers.

One of the issues we often see is that business owners will hide from us a little bit the ultimate goal they are trying to achieve. That is not necessary. You can be open with your procurement officers, saying: Look, I understand that the process is like this, but for such and such a reason I would like us to deviate a little bit and then we do this.

Nausheena and I were having another discussion like that last week for procurement officers, and one of the things we discussed was that procurement is not black and white. Yes, there are several policies, several guides, there are several things in place that manage the process but there are also a lot of flexibilities. And that is where, when Nausheena was talking about engaging with the different experts, the different areas, that includes your procurement experts. Engage with them, talk to them early in the process, and then they will be able to help you manage. If you try to do something that deviates a little bit from normal policies, well, they will help you identify the risk that this causes. As a business owner and on the procurement side, we can decide together whether this is a risk that we can tolerate as a department, present it to senior management, and then move forward with our approach.

You know, to have integrity, when there are reviews, the Auditor General comes out with reports. It's not always about, well, you didn't follow the policy, exactly how it's supposed to be.

Often it is that, yes, you have deviated from policy but you have not explained why, you have not said why, so we take it for granted that it was done in bad faith, then the report is a little more negative.

It is okay to deviate, but it is important to know what you are deviating from first, to accept the risk it brings, and then to make sure it is well documented that, yes, in that case only we are deviating because there is such and such a reason. So we explain it.

When we talk about integrity, it is a little bit like that too, being open with the process, being transparent not only with suppliers but internally, with your various procurement advisors, security, IT and all that.

[00:39:32 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: One of the things I often say in procurement for anyone is that, at the end of the day, in procurement, we always talk about fair, open, transparent.

[00:39:40 Emilio Franco appears full screen. Text on screen: Emilio Franco, Executive Director, Treasury Board of Canada.]

Emilio Franco: And what do those mean and how do you apply it?

So, fairness means that the process is treating everyone equally. It's unbiased and that no matter who you are, as a vendor, the process treats you equally. It's not fairness as in, that person got an ice cream cone and I didn't, it's fairness in terms of the rules apply to everyone the same way.

[00:40:02 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: Openness means that everyone has an opportunity. So, it's made in government procurement. We post our opportunities publicly on Canada Buys, but everyone's got that opportunity. Everyone can participate. The process is open.

And transparency means that the rules of the game are available to everyone. You know how the government is going to review your submission, you know how you're going to be evaluated, you know what the terms of that contract are going to be. The rules are clear to everyone.

And so, when you're a client trying to do something that might be a little bit different, often what procurement will say is, Okay, how do we apply these principles of fairness, openness, and transparency to achieve that outcome? And I often say, as long as you're saying what you're going to do, saying it publicly and doing what you said you would do, in procurement, you can almost do anything within the bounds of law and legal and ethical constraints. So, it's a great point.

Marie-Hélène?

Marie-Hélène Brisson: Well, without repeating too much, I think that there is no one who comes to the table who does not want to be honest, when they sit down for a project. Anyway, I think that people themselves do not realize that this is what is at stake. They sit there and go about their daily business and they do not necessarily know the rules of everything in terms of security, digital or whatever, and then they get into trouble.

So for me, I think it is also about changing the whole aura around procurement officers.

I've heard a lot of "it's a pebble in my shoes, it's a problem".

Then instead of seeing it like that, for me it is to see it as a catalyst, as an opportunity.

[00:41:30 Marie-Hélène Brisson appears full screen. Text on screen: Marie-Hélène Brisson, Director, Parks Canada.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: Then it is part of a business manager's role, a director or a section manager to sit down with all the stakeholders at the base when starting a project and then saying: Well, we are all in the same boat here. We each have our little roles to play, but we are all in the same boat to achieve our goals. Basically, I think that the people who come to you for your procurement services are all people who want to innovate. We are people who want to modernize. We are people who want the government to be seen as a forerunner, as advanced. Not as archaic and still lagging behind. So the idea is to get together from the start, and I think that this is how we perhaps manage this issue of having less perception of a lack of integrity.

[00:42:10 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: Nausheena.

Nausheena Wright: Yes, I completely agree with everything. I guess I'll say one more area that we could probably touch on is in terms of mitigating potential conflicts of interest as well to uphold the integrity in the procurement process.

[00:42:22 Nausheena Wright appears full screen. Text on screen: Nausheena Wright, Acting Director General, Health Canada.]

Nausheena Wright: Whether that's real, apparent, potential conflicts of interest can happen at any point in time throughout the whole procurement process, and it's important to keep that in mind as you're involved with the procurements as well.

Sometimes it can be super apparent. We're not supposed to award a contract to our spouse. That's clear. We're not supposed to do that. But there could be other times when you're at a party and you see a potential bidder that you know is part of your solicitation, and you don't know this person, you don't really communicate with them, but it could be perceived that there could be a bias there, and you're involved with that process.

So, that could be something to keep in mind. And at the end of the day, what you can do is do your gut check as normal. Or if you think, if we still have newspapers, if you think that this could be a headline on the newspaper one day, that's probably a trigger for you to recuse yourself from the process. One easy way to do this is to just engage with your conflict of interest office. They will help guide you through that and to help you figure out what your pulse check feels and what you should be doing. And do those checks throughout the process as well, like I mentioned. I think that would help as well.

[00:43:31 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: I like that you mentioned conflicts of interest because we launched a guide on conflicts of interest in procurement a few months ago. So, this is a guide that has been prepared again, not just for procurement officers but for managers, and that includes advice. How to see if there are potential conflicts of interest and how to manage them during the process.

At Treasury Board, we like our guides these days. We have a guide on conflict of interest that we released a couple of months ago that is actually quite helpful in understanding how conflicts of interest can arise in procurement. They can come from very obvious places, like you mentioned, but also some less obvious places that I think are important to conceptualize and think about how we make sure that those are addressed in a process.

Maxime Thauvette: Nausheena also raised a good point. Speaking of conflict of interest, this is another area where you do not need an expert. If you are unsure, as Nausheena said, you have groups within your departments that can help you. The worst thing you can do is ask yourself: I do not know if this is a conflict or not. I will not say anything because it does not matter. It is going to come back to bite you. There are examples, several examples in our world of procurement where there are people who, it happened that their childhood friend had a company, they did not think about it because they do not do procurement. They did a competition. They were seen in a restaurant together, but they were friends, basically, but the perception was that: Well, look at them, they got a contract the following week in that department. Well, that is why they won. Then the procurement had to start over. So if you are not sure, just declare it, then if there is no issue your group will tell you. It is not a question of: Oh well, if there is a conflict, you will be kicked out and then you cannot work for the government anymore. It is really just about being more, again, being transparent, being open, and then saying: Look, yes, I have a relationship with this person or that person. If something happens, I will have to remove myself. This allows the process to run a little bit more [inaudible].

[00:45:27 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: On the subject of integrity, let's talk about – and then we'll turn to questions – the things that... Like beyond conflict of interest, what are the little things that managers... Well, not little, but the things that managers could encounter that are those mini ethical situations. And I'm thinking, we actually released recently as part of a new procedure, a list of things that managers have to sign off on that they didn't do before they award the contract. And so, that the vendor involved in preparing the statement of work. That's something that can happen when you're engaging with vendors, or you have a vendor that you're working with and they're helping input into requirements, and then you release the procurement and they bid on it. So, these kinds of things create integrity issues.

So, there's some checklists there to make sure you're following some rules. But maybe we'll touch on just the classic one, and then we'll go to questions. Can you talk to a vendor?

Maxime Thauvette: Absolutely. The follow-up is, about what? I think that's the bigger question.

I think what often happens is that we are not here to scare you. And Emilio mentioned it, it is not about not having relationships with vendors. It is important in your role as a business owner to have a good relationship with vendors, but it is about how you go about it. If you have a contract with a vendor and then you talk about work-related things, absolutely. Have as many conversations as you can to make it the product you want. Where you have to be careful, and again, this is where your procurement officers can advise you, is to, for example, I cannot go sit down with my friend who has a company or family who has a company, and then discuss: Look, we have this big contract coming up. We are working on it. Nobody knows. But get ready, you are going to be able to submit your submission, and then here is what you should do.

Another case, and I'll let you jump in, but another case that we see often, and in light of the changes that the Treasury Board rolled out as well, is you have a consultant that's working with you. And naturally, they're in the office together day in, day out. You become close, you work on a thing, and then his contract comes to an end. You still need the services for whatever reason, for another project, for something down the road. And you know what? I've been working with so-and-so, and I think it'd be perfect. So, you go and tell them, Okay, there's going to be a contract coming out. Go and give your name to such-and-such company, and then they'll put you forward.

So, these are examples of things you cannot do. So, the simple answer, Can you talk to a consultant?

Yes. Depends about what. And if you're not sure, talk to your contracting officer.

Marie-Hélène Brisson: As your business owner, that's happened to me a couple of times. The more you do RFPs out there, the more your name is out there, the more they write to you, the more they want to meet with you, the more they have a product to offer you.

[00:48:20 Marie-Hélène Brisson appears full screen.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: So, I say, go see your values and ethics folks, because the first time you're like, oh, finally, there's people out there that know what I want. But then when the sixth one comes along, you're like, oh, hold on. Maybe I'm doing something.... You get excited as a business owner because you're like, somebody who knows what I want.

So, that's a little touchy because then you get into a space when you're going to be renewing or if... It's a bit of a gray zone for me in terms of I like being able to sit. You meet them at conferences. In the recreational world, we have a variety of conferences, and then they show up, right? And you're like, I've been seen with this person. I have their business card. What do I do?

It's still interesting because we're in the world of innovating and making sure we stay at the top of the trends in tourism in my world, so it's important. But I manage them really tightly within the confine of that conference, not special lunch afterwards.

Maxime Thauvette: Well, there's a way to do it, too, right?

Marie-Hélène Brisson: Yes.

[00:49:15 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Maxime Thauvette: I think engaging, and Emilio talked about fairness, openness, and transparency. It's fine to talk to suppliers. If you're going to talk to suppliers, be open about it. Hey, I want to talk to anybody that has any information on this topic. That way, no one can turn around afterwards and say, Well, you were so friendly with this one. I also had knowledge of something you wanted, but you didn't give me the chance to share with you.

Emilio Franco: Nausheena.

Nausheena Wright: Yes, I generally agree. So, yes, I think you can talk to vendors, but you should be cautious, is what I'll say, and be careful how you do it. You don't want to give them the perception that by talking with them, they're going to get a contract from that, or that any quote they give you locks you into that either. So, you have to be careful how you word things to them as well. But it's part of market research, right? To see what's out there and what can serve you at the end of the day.

[00:49:57 Nausheena Wright appears full screen.]

Nausheena Wright: But when it comes down to officially getting that requirement, you will, of course, have to go through contracting. So, what I normally tell folks is if you are trying to get a gage on market in general, do an RFI, which is a Request for Information, which can be facilitated through your procurement officer and your procurement team, because everyone will then at the same time get the same information at the same time. There is no risk for non-transparency, or any bias at that point.

Maxime Thauvette: Demos is another one we see a lot of.

[00:50:27 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Nausheena Wright: Which one?

Marie-Hélène Brisson: Demos.

Maxime Thauvette: Yes, demos. So, you'll get clients that say, I got contacted by this company. There's no cost, so I'm just going to go and use their software for six months. And then to your point, you end up in the procurement process, and it's now an unfair advantage that you got to use someone else's software.

There's nothing wrong with demos. To take it back to your point, can we talk to suppliers? You can go out, do an RFI. We have many documents in procurement we can use to go out and seek demos from many companies, and then you get to see all of them. And you'll be way more advanced in your procurement process. And if you've done it in the back end, and then we find out, Oh, there's a procurement process, and it turns out now everything is unfair because we've been using a software for six months.

Emilio Franco: I often say it's marketing. Market intelligence is important. It's actually encouraged. And there's various ways of doing that. But once you're at the point where you're really turning into, I'm writing requirements, I'm in that procurement mode, that's where it really needs to close things off, start having the conversations through the right procurement channels, and keep things in that, again, fair, open, and transparent.

And Nausheena, I just want to touch on because you mentioned you do have to be careful when you talk to vendors. As a manager, when you're dealing with a business, no matter what level you are and what you may feel about your level, you are a representative of the Government of Canada. If you tell a vendor, yes, that sounds like a good idea. I'm interested. Go and do a little bit of something, and then I'd like to see what that looks like. You've verbally potentially established a contract, and they can come back and say, hey, well, we just did a month's worth of work. Here's my bill.

And they do it. It happens, right? You are a representative of the Government of Canada when you're engaging with a vendor. You're not just a manager or whatever level you are. And you can say, well, I didn't have the authority under... They don't know that. And so, they presume that you're telling them things as the Government of Canada.

So, it's important to understand that being clear and being careful in terms of those interactions because you can't commit the government to various things.

1. We will turn to questions for those in the room. We have microphones,

[00:52:35 Emilio Franco appears full screen.]

Emilio Franco: if you want to ask questions. And we will start with an online question.

We talked a little bit about documentation. It requires work, but do you have any tips for documenting a file well? Anyone on the panel, if anyone wants to take that.

[00:52:57 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Nausheena Wright: Sure. Yes. Do it, is my first thing. If you think ...not of you think... If it justifies your contract, if it justifies decisions, it should be on file. So, give it to your procurement officer because they will keep it on file for you.

Documentation is extremely important. We all went through a couple of audits this year, in terms of procurement, and that was a common theme I saw across the results of the audit is there was a lack of documentation to support what happened during the process of a contract, whether it was pre-contract award or post-contract award. So, as business owners, you do have an obligation to make sure that you were documenting well. This can be any communications you have with vendors during the process, or after when the contract is awarded. Whether you're changing maybe some small tweak in your requirement that is allowed through the contract, of course, to just ensure that when you do get a time sheet, it's like, yes, they did X, Y, and Z, and here is my agreement to that.

So, I think, yes, those are my tips, I guess, is if you just do more than less, I think, is bottom line for me.

Maxime Thauvette: And it goes back to what we talked about in the beginning, when you're asking yourself, should I even procure? And can I explain this procurement? Can my deputy go to committee and explain to parliament that this was a good idea? Anything you have that helps support that should be documented and be kept on file.

And it's the same as anything else in this process. When you're not sure, should I keep this? Should I not? Ask questions.

Nausheena Wright: Just keep it.

Maxime Thauvette: Keep it until someone tells you, no, this is not needed. But for the most part, it will be, keep it. Especially nowadays, electronically, it's pretty easy to keep everything online on your file.

Marie-Hélène Brisson: It's not just about procurement audits. What I see a lot right now is IT and cyber security audits on some of the products that we buy. So, it's a small portion, I guess, of the overall contract that we did. But often, because we manage them as projects, they're going to end up in that big pile of elements we save for the procurement.

Emilio Franco: One of the things... So, actually under policy, there is a list of some documentation that has to be there under policy. It's not all-encompassing. But one of the things that we recently added is who is the business owner, the name of the business owner on the procurement file, because there have been some situations where it wasn't clear who was involved and who is ultimately accountable for making certain decisions.

And so, we now have a requirement. And again, it's not to scare you, but as a manager, as a business owner, your name now has to be in the procurement file clearly as the person that is accountable and responsible as the business owner for that procurement. I think that's an important piece of accountability, but also, we need that paper trail to know who made the decision.

There's a question here that I'll just take.

Will we have dedicated courses for public servants? There's going to be courses dedicated for business owners. Yes, actually. Well, right now, there are some courses associated with delegated authority. There is Authority Delegation Training.

[00:56:02 Emilio Franco appears full screen.]

Emilio Franco: We are in the process right now working with the Canada School to update that training, to be reflective of the new policies that are in place and the new requirements. If you're someone with a Section 32 Financial Delegation Authority, that will be a new course that will be coming out in the near future.

As well, we are working on updating our procurement courses. Even though the procurement courses are written for procurement officers, particularly the more introductory courses, this is something that would be great for business owners to take because it gives a little bit of the fundamentals. Actually, I think it's, I don't want to say a date here, but sometime later this month, we are launching a new procurement introductory module with the Canada School. It will be a great place for managers to go to just get that 30-minute overview on what is procurement all about, what are some of the rules, and what are some of the key things to think about. That's a great thing to start there.

[00:56:56 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Maxime Thauvette: If I can throw a plug maybe for my own department, talk to your contracting officers. I know in our department, we do have courses for our clients, for business owners, in terms of the basics geared towards our specific department, but it'll give you the basics of what procurement can do. It's very likely that if you talk to your procurement officer, they probably have something like that that they can point you to as well in your own department.

Emilio Franco: That is a good point. So if you want any other advice on procurement, even if you do not have a procurement going on, your procurement team probably has advice, guides, information or can just sit down with you and talk a little bit about maybe the needs, is this really going to be a procurement? Even if you have an idea, as we have talked about before, collaborate early, even if you do not know what you are going to do, just talk with them to discuss ideas and that can help you shape and advise on your procurement strategy.

We'll go to the next question.

[00:57:57 Emilio Franco appears full screen.]

Emilio Franco: In your opinion, based on experience – this is an interesting one – Who's responsible for what? I like these questions, right? Who's usually responsible for security requirements or assessments when putting a contract in place? Procurement, business owner, or both?

[00:58:11 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Maxime Thauvette: I think we should write down your answers.

Marie-Hélène Brisson: Yes, that is it, see if we do not have the same answer.

My business owner, in my experience.

Emilio Franco: Do you agree?

Maxime Thauvette: I would go both in terms of... And I guess it depends how you read the question, but you're right, the business owner is responsible for writing the SRCL; documenting what the security is. But as a procurement officer, we still have a role to make sure you've done it. So, we will absolutely validate to make sure that's all.

Marie-Hélène Brisson: But the answer to the question is, the type of... If you go into IT security, it's even more detailed, it's really the business owner that can answer all of that.

Maxime Thauvette: And just maybe, we talked about this earlier, it doesn't mean you have to be an expert in security. You have security experts. It's your responsibility to document what the advice they're giving you and make a decision if they're giving you options. But it does end up being your responsibility to talk with security. Right.

Emilio Franco: Nausheena?

Nausheena Wright: I agree. I think it's both, but there's also security that also has a responsibility in this space. So, they will take a look at your requirements business owner, and then they'll say, Okay, you have the right security requirements or not to reflect that. So, there's three players, in my opinion, in that space.

Emilio Franco: So, I'll give the official Treasury Board answer, which is that ultimately the business owner is responsible for the requirements. And the business owner has to be informed by whatever experts they need, including security, including contracting. But the manager, the business owner, is responsible for the requirement, period.

When the contract is put in place, there are responsibilities, particularly for security and contracting, to make sure those requirements are respected. In some departments, it's the contracting group that is validating the security on behalf of the business owner. In some departments, the business owner has a responsibility.

Important to clarify in your department how that process is run because it does differ from organization to organization. You can't just assume that it was done by the other party, because that's where nobody does it, and then we have security gaps. But at the end of the day, as the business owner, you are responsible for your requirements, and you are supported in that through the various experts that exist in the process.

Do we have anyone in the room who wants to ask a question? Hello.

[01:00:18 An audience member speaks from a microphone.]

Audience member: Hello. Thanks for the conversation. Richard (Denaud) from PSPC.

I know at least three of the four presenters.

My question is, I'm working in policy, procurement policy right now.

You know, we often get questions from procurement and the answer is always "it depends."

It's like, it's almost always "it depends". Often, we provide an answer after discussion that comes down to, "It's a business decision". And I wonder, when we say it's a business decision – we being procurement, let's say – does the business owner hear, oh, he said we can do whatever we want to. Or what do you hear when you hear business decision?

And then part two for maybe Max and Nausheena, Emilio, too, maybe. What should we be...

How should we frame this sentence?

What should we include when we say it's a business decision? Thank you.

[01:01:23 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: I may be a bit of a different business owner than others, but I think, again, it goes back to our financial delegation and our authorities. At the end of the day, I know very well as an executive, when I put my name on that contract, I am scared a little bit, just the right level. But I made the decision based on all of the advice that procurement, IT, security, everybody gave me.

[01:01:46 Marie-Hélène Brisson appears full screen.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: And I'd much rather you give me a little bit of a sandbox than giving me black and white that does not meet at all my requirements. I will own it the moment I put my name on that contract. Again, it goes back to my deputy head is going to go to parliament defend it. And yes, I will have to accompany him to that said meeting. But at the end of the day, I don't see it as PSPC gave me to go ahead, and I said yes, and I signed it because PSPC told me to.

So I think, especially when you want to innovate in different fields, like at Parks Canada, we are a bit of an oddball. We don't fit in the boxes. It's different. We're about fun, recreation. We want to make it easy for people. With a lot of barriers in terms of IT security and procurement, when you give me a larger sandbox, I'm happy with that.

[01:02:38 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Maxime Thauvette: I think for part two, it goes to communication, too. I'd be very disappointed if we have procurement officers that respond with just, "It's a business decision". I know we're stretching your example to the extreme here, but

I like to think that—and we talked about it a little bit in communicating and then engaging early in the discussion.

I think with the business decision, and I know we do probably have a few procurement officers listening in, you have a responsibility as a procurement officer

[01:03:08 Maxime Thauvette appears full screen.]

Maxime Thauvette: to provide that sandbox that you're talking about. What are the limits of what you can do within that business decision? And that can only happen through communication.

We need to sit down and talk with our clients. And for all the business owners listening to us, if you are not receiving this service from your procurement officers, go back to them and say: Look, this is my decision, but explain to me, can I give a contract to my spouse? Oh no, that goes too far. Work with them to delineate what the sandbox is and where you can play in it.

[01:03:40 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Nausheena Wright: Yes, I agree. I think that it's up to us to equip you well to make that decision. There's varying levels of risk, and it's up to us to show you, Okay, here's risk one, and how high is it, and what to think about the pros and cons, and all the way down to the lowest risk, so that you can decide what makes sense for you. But yes, at the end of the day, you have to own it. I tell that to my business owners, too, because it is up to them. But it's our responsibility to equip you well with that.

Emilio Franco: We talk about a lot of rules in procurement, but at the end of the day, most of those rules are principles, as opposed to hard, you have to do this rules. And as you mentioned, maybe it was because you trained me, Richard, but I always remember one of the first things I learned.

Maxime Thauvette: You trained all of us.

Emilio Franco: Yes, you did. One of the first things I learned in procurement was the answer to any procurement question is, "it depends". I think it is a gray [area]. It's an art, not a science to some extent. And so, that does mean risk tolerance on certain questions, right?

Now, you always have to stick to your fair, open, transparent, and there are boundaries to that that result in a higher risk. But it also means that any procurement kind of decision will come down to what you're trying to do, the risks involved, the risk tolerance of the business owner, and the risk tolerance of the contracting authority. And so, sometimes those don't always match up. You could have a very risk-averse business owner, very risk-tolerant contracting authority, and then you make a decision that's based on that.

On the flip side, it can be very frustrating for a lot of managers. They say, well, I'm comfortable taking this risk. And the contracting authority says, no, I'm the one signing the contract. I'm not comfortable with that. So, there are ways of, of course, managing that, having that conversation. But this is something that we need to navigate. And again, I think when we look going forward, the pendulum has focused a lot on risk aversion in the procurement process, of course. And a lot of it is because rules aren't being followed. And so, we have to make sure that rules are being followed, that we're respecting those rules.

But those rules also provide a lot of flexibility. With a government that's focused on delivery, we will probably have to look at that calibration as we go forward. But again, those rules are there. They are clear. The Auditor General has said it multiple times that they're clear. We just have to make sure they're followed.

Question in the room. Thank you.

[01:06:06 An audience member speaks from a microphone.]

Audience member: Hello. My name is Jean-François (Hamelin) from Transport Canada. Thank you very much for the panel.

We've recently seen an increase in the development of artificial intelligence. From a managerial perspective, do you think that it's going to affect the role of managers? As an example, defining the scope of work.

And what about the integrity that comes up with the use of the artificial intelligence? Thank you.

[01:06:37 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: Interesting question.

Nausheena Wright: That's a new one.

Maxime Thauvette: No, it's a very good question. I can jump in. I think we could probably do an entire panel on that topic.

I think procurement is no different from any other region or group in government....or in your private life. I think AI is here, it's part of our life now. But I think in terms of procurement, in terms of the integrity of a procurement process, I think you have to look at it as a tool. It's a tool. It doesn't replace your responsibilities as a business owner, my responsibilities as a procurement officer, your security, your responsibility for security colleagues.

But I do think it's something that can help. You can use it to bounce ideas off of it. Sometimes we think we write, I'll go back to my description of a table, and you can describe it as best as you can, and you can write 15 chapters on it, and then we put it in an RFP, and we go out, and we have an RFP that ends up being nine months with 735 questions. So, I think...

Emilio Franco: Is that a dig?

Maxime Thauvette: No, but that was my RFP.

Nausheena Wright: Lived experience.

Maxime Thauvette: It was a self-dig, maybe? I don't know. A joint dig? Good lessons learned from that, though.

But I think it can be a tool where, in that example of my table, you could plug it in there. Obviously, respecting your department's protected, be in all those measures. But if it's something that can be shared in there, you plug it in there, can you help me? The simple prompts as, explain this to a five-year-old. Oh, now my table is super clear. I can now take that, work with that, build it into your requirements.

I don't think we're at a point yet, and hopefully never, but it'll replace all the public servants in terms of, well, now we have ChatGPT. We don't need to do RFPs anymore. Let's just ask them who the winner is, and they'll tell us which company we can hire. But I think it can be a tool that can help clarify certain things and get us there.

Marie-Hélène Brisson: I can maybe add to this, as the component of functional authority. We are being pushed a lot by senior management to go with artificial intelligence services. We ask ourselves this question a lot, because we are still in a tourist field and a little more recreational. People can order pizza on ChatGPT. I have vice-presidents who come to me and say: Can you plan my trip with ChatGPT? So, okay, wait a minute there. But since we are being pushed there, your clients, that means you are going to have to help our IT teams as much as help us figure out how to integrate these technologies internally. If we read a little bit about what is happening with the government at the moment and the mandate letters that have come out, there is going to be AI in our environment. How do we do it? This is what we at Parks are asking ourselves: How do we influence? At that point, I have to define the sandbox of the visitor experience, where I want to take it to go upstream with our executives, I mean, well that is where we should go. That is too far, that is not far enough. This is the "sweet spot." Then it is about working with you on the procurement side on how we can do it, but it is not when it will happen, it is not if it will happen, it is when it will happen.

Maxime Thauvette: I think there are ways too, there are opportunities with AI too. In the sense that, if I take the example of ChatGPT, it is AI that is public, we can put things on it.

[01:09:52 Maxime Thauvette appears full screen.]

Maxime Thauvette: But I think there will be opportunities in the future where procurement people, business owners, we can work with our IT people and then bring artificial intelligence inside our government walls. Then if we can have some kind of AI eventually where—I know there are projects already working on that. But we enter all our RFPs that we do, all our requests for proposals in there, and then it gives us a kind of analysis. Then later, when we always buy the same thing, well it is a tool that can tell us: Well look, the last time you bought this you did this, and then it caused problems because such and such criteria were not well defined. Or some kind of database for, if I am buying professional services, well here are the kinds of criteria that might be applicable in your case for a project manager.

So I think there are opportunities there. I would not suggest doing this with external tools right now, but these are plans. Then you, as a business owner, these are projects that you could surely also put forward, to bring this internally to help you in the future.

[01:10:48 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Nausheena Wright: Yes, I think it is here. I think it's a space to watch because it's very rapid – what we're seeing that it can do. I don't think that it can replace, to Max's point of replacing the bidding process, or whatnot. I think it can be a good place to do pulse checks.

[01:11:05 Nausheena Wright appears full screen.]

Nausheena Wright: If you have a statement of work and it doesn't have any protected information, you can plop it in there and it can maybe help make things more concise. But I would still rely on the business owner to still use their own mind and their eyes to do that review before submitting it to procurement. Same thing with my contracting officers. I would want them to do the same thing. I do that myself with email sometimes, and I'll say, okay, make this sound more formal. And I'll look at it and I say, well, this is not actually what I want it to say. So, it's not perfect either. And it doesn't sometimes connect all the dots that I wanted to either.

So, I don't think we're there yet, but it's fast paced. It's coming. It's here. It's just, where is it going to take us?

[01:11:43 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: I'll take it back to the business owner has a responsibility for their requirement. And so, if you're using a tool to help generate that requirement, that's fine. But you're responsible for that. So, you got to make sure that whatever is generated, you're aware of, you know what you're asking, that you've read it to make sure that it's valid.

But, in a world where most people have never written a statement of work in their career, and you've been tapped on the shoulder, hey, Andrea, I want you to lead a new transformation initiative, and you're going to have to write an RFP for a new system that's going to replace our reservation system. Oh, my goodness. Okay, maybe I start and say, what does a statement of work look like for a new reservation system? What outcome should I be asking for? That's a good start. But you still have an accountability for that, and you're still going to have to work with all your experts around security requirements, accessibility requirements, and so on. So, at the end of the day, that's your responsibility.

One thing to watch out for is that bidders are starting to use artificial intelligence to respond to government opportunities. And while that's fine, what it means, though, is that they may not have a full appreciation of what they committed to in their response. So, these are the types of things that are new things to watch out for, which is, does the bidder actually have an appreciation of what they said they would do, particularly if that bid forms part of the contract?

And of course, as public servants, maybe we do start using artificial intelligence to help evaluate bids. If we got a thousand pages from a vendor, currently, everyone has to read it, everyone has to score it, and so, on. There are tools that we can use. But at the end of the day, there is a policy on decision making using artificial intelligence tools, and it talks about how to make ethical decisions and how to arrive on those decisions and how humans, at the end of the day, have to make a decision, not the tool.

Online question. This is a bit specific to cloud procurement. So the question is: Does our discussion change in the context of cloud procurement?

So, does the role of manager's procurement change for procuring a cloud or software as a service procurement? Thoughts?

Marie-Hélène Brisson: Well, in my recent experience to have two different systems that are all cloud-based, I am the business owner because it is not a business enterprise solution. So, it's not something that the entire agency would use. It's very focused towards visitors. Being the business owner, we ended up being the ones procuring with strong, strong, strong help from our IT and obviously procurement folks. But at the end of the day, the goal, the end goal and the need we had, was very niche in government setting, but for 20 million people, but niche in the Government of Canada setting.

[01:14:37 Marie-Hélène Brisson appears full screen.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: For us, if it is something that would be a business enterprise, or used across the agency, that would be like IT that would be leading on things like that.

[01:14:46 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: Just that point. One of the things we're seeing on the big IT initiatives is this question of who's the business owner on a big IT initiative? Is it the IT organization? Is it the program area responsible? These are things that departments are actually struggling with. Who owns the project? But not just who owns the project – it's an IT solution. The IT is doing a lot of the work – but it's in support of a program area. And so, who's managing the vendor? Who wrote the RFP? These are important questions that the bigger and more complex IT initiatives struggle with. Absolutely.

Ultimately, my personal view is that it's the program trying to deliver something. And they, again, may be relying on IT heavily. But a program trying to deliver a service to Canadians is ultimately, generally, where the business owner lands. Who's signing? Who's got the money? Typically, it's not IT with the money. It's the program area.

Maxime Thauvette: A very big one, too, is...

Emilio Franco: You've been involved in some of these big...

Maxime Thauvette: Well, I said this before, too, just maybe with my clients, but I always said, if I pull this requirement, if I cancel this contract, who's going to scream the loudest? So, that's a good way to identify your business owner at the time as well. If I don't do the thing you want to do, who's the most upset about it? Probably it won't be IT because they'll have other projects to move on. To your point, I think it would be the program, trying to deliver it.

And then just to close on this question, too, I don't think it matters what you are buying. When you're speaking about federal public procurement, I think the roles remain the same. As a business owner, you have the same responsibilities.

I think the question maybe comes from a place where—and this is a funny . . . procurement, what do you call it "numeragy"?

Crosstalk among the panelists

Maxime Thauvette: I always called it cloud. This is my Franco-Ontarian side.

But you are talking about the "cloud." This is something that is more recent. I think there are challenges. It is a little bit more difficult to know exactly how we are going to buy it, how it works. It is certain that for several years we have had experts (Aspak SSX) who are very well informed, who have become a little more expert in the field. But I think the question comes more from, because it is new. You could take the same example with -...we invent teleportation tomorrow. Well, I can tell you right now, my officers would not know where to go to start buying that, and how, and the impacts, but the responsibility has remained the same. You're still responsible to defining your requirement. We're still responsible to ensuring a fair, open, transparent procurement. It doesn't matter what you're buying.

[01:17:22 Emilio Franco appears full screen.]

Emilio Franco: So, one of the other questions we have here is around vendor performance. And so, the question is a bit specific, do some departments have vendor performance policies? Is there a template for this? Let's just talk about maybe more generally. Vendor performance approaches to managing issues with vendors.

Maybe I'll start with Marie-Hélène then from a manager perspective. Have you encountered situations where your vendors are not performing and how are you approaching dealing with that?

[01:17:48 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: Yes. It goes back a little bit to what you were saying earlier, we're very Canadian and we want to be really nice. A lot of times, I remember one of my colleagues was like, oh, they're our partners.

[01:17:57 Marie-Hélène Brisson appears full screen.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: I was like, well, for the price we pay them. I mean, sure, I want a good relationship, but they're paid to do the work. Is it being done?

So, yes, without being a policy, we do have in each contract something that is an evaluation, that's consistently reviewing performance, or whenever we launch big initiatives, we do a postmortem and figure out, okay, how did that go?

And it's happened – I think we've mentioned it a little bit earlier – but as a business owner, it's also really important to have the guts that when the contract is not going well, or the service provider, the vendor, is not giving you what you need to move in the different steps, I've had to terminate a contract with PSPC for a vendor that was not going to be able to deliver what we needed after one year only.

It's scary because you're like, oh, my God, I'm going to go back through RFP, and I don't want to do that.

But I think it's our responsibility to make sure that we...I mean, it's taxpayer dollars at the end of the day, right? So, super important.

[01:19:00 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Maxime Thauvette: Music to my ears. No, I think you're right. We talked about this a bit earlier in terms of the role of a business owner. You're the one that's doing the work. You're the one that's closely working with the vendor. So, if there are issues, as procurement officers, we rely heavily on you to tell us. Sometimes your officer can be managing a dozen, 15, 20, 30 contracts. They don't necessarily have the time to spend and monitor every single one of them. But if there's an issue that's raised, their time will shift to helping you solve that issue. So, I think, ultimately, I think it would rest with the business owner. But again, you have questions, bring in your procurement officer.

Nausheena Wright: I agree. We're none the wiser, right? So, until you flag it to us and that you need help if you're not sure how to navigate it, we're there to support.

[01:19:48 Nausheena Wright appears full screen.]

Nausheena Wright: But yes, I'm glad to hear what you guys are doing.

[01:19:50 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Marie-Hélène Brisson: It's not fun, but....

Nausheena Wright: No, it's not easy for sure, but it has to be done.

Emilio Franco: Absolutely. So with the few minutes left, maybe, we'll do a final lightning round a minute each. What advice would you give to managers trying to navigate the procurement world?

Maxime Thauvette: Engage early. Our most is, as soon as you think you might have a procurement, not you have one, you think you might have one, bring in your procurement team. Have that conversation, and they'll be there to advise you.

Marie-Hélène Brisson: I think sit down with a friendly colleague, because I'm trying to add to what you guys are going to say. Being a business owner and you're not familiar with finance and procurement is super scary. You feel like you're not... You guys are speaking jargon sometimes to us, right? But those lunch and learns and asking a colleague in procurement for coffee without the pressure of doing a contract, for me, that's what was helpful at the beginning and understanding, okay, how do I navigate this within my agency before I get to a point where I need to ask you questions, and then I don't understand what you're telling me?

Nausheena Wright: I would say plan, and also engage early.

[01:21:00 Nausheena Wright appears full screen.]

Nausheena Wright: Tap into the resources that you have available to you. And if you don't know, ask. Someone will help you. I think whatever domain you're looking at, HR, procurement, finance, IT, everyone wants to help each other. That's what I found. Some people are scared to talk about it, though, but if you just ask, people will help you. So, just ask. Everyone's there to help.

[01:21:18 Emilio Franco, Maxime Thauvette, Marie-Hélène Brisson and Nausheena Wright appear on stage.]

Emilio Franco: Fantastic advice. And I'll maybe cap that off with saying, as a manager, you're not expected to be an expert, but I'll go back to what I said before. You are expected to know what your responsibilities are. And to exercise those appropriately.

One of the things I highlighted at the beginning is that business owners have responsibilities under policy. Many of them don't realize that because it's just the procurement policy. Well, I'm not a procurement officer. Why would I read the procurement policy? Well, because there are specific responsibilities that you have and that you should be aware of them. We've inserted reminders into the procurement process now. Many departments have various controls. We now have formal requirements that remind you of these responsibilities. Again, it's not to scare you, it's actually to help you and help you know what those responsibilities are and help support you in achieving them.

With that, I'd like to extend a big thanks to Maxime, Marie-Hélène, Nausheena, for your participation today as panelists,

[01:22:16 Emilio Franco appears full screen. Text on screen: Emilio Franco, Executive Director, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat.]

Emilio Franco: to all the members in the room and online for engaging in this conversation with us.

As you've heard, the role of managers or business owners is key to the success of a procurement process. You are responsible, accountable, but you have friends. They are there to help you. Engage with them early, engage with them often.

Managers should not hesitate to seek additional assistance from colleagues within their organization who are knowledgeable in this area. You all have a procurement group somewhere, often in the finance group that is there to help you, either you can talk to your supervisors, the designated procurement manager, the contractors are all there again to help you. Even if they are not in procurement, people who have been involved in procurement in the past can help you, give advice, and opinions. Everyone is here to help you.

It's not scary if you have the right help.

A piece of that, as I mentioned at the beginning, a piece of heavy equipment can be scary at first, but if someone teaches you how to use it, gives you a respectful fear of where you can get hurt, with the right training, with the right support, you're fine.

TBS will soon be sharing some additional resources for business owners on our investment management GC Exchange site. We are actively using GC Exchange now here within the Treasury Board Office of the Comptroller General. We have a site, just for people that aren't aware, procurement is part of the broader investment management policy suite. When you hear the investment management community, procurement falls underneath that, and that's where you'll find our information.

Your feedback is very important. I invite you to complete the evaluation and review for this session that you will receive in the coming days. The School will also offer other events and encourages you to consult the website for the most up-to-date information and to register for the next learning opportunity.

As I mentioned as well, we soon have some training coming out, introductory training, yes, for procurement officers, but actually quite beneficial to business owners and managers. We are updating the Authority Delegation Training, which is coming in the near future. These are all going to be additional resources that are there to support you as managers.

We have the Managers Guide, Key Considerations for Procuring Professional Services on our website, which is a great tool for helping someone that is about to engage, or need a consultant, or some services. Our Guide for Conflict of Interest, as well a great tool to help support the integrity of the process.

So, after all those pitches, with that, I hope that you have enjoyed today's session. It was Friday the 13th, which I didn't say at the beginning not to jinx us, but I think it was a great day. I wish you a wonderful one.

I hope you enjoyed today's event and have a great day. Thank you very much.

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