Navigating the Public Service as a New Public Servant (FON3-V11)

Transcript: Navigating the Public Service as a New Public Servant

[00:00:00 The CSPS logo appears onscreen.]

[00:00:06 The screen fades to Lainy Destin in a video chat panel.]

Lainy Destin (Executive Faculty Member, Canada School of Public Service): Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome. My name is Lainy Destin, I'm an executive faculty member at the Canada School of Public Service and I'm delighted to serve as your moderator for today's session, 'Navigating the Public Service as a New Public Servant.'

Before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge that I'm joining you from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people. I offer my sincere gratitude to the generations of Algonquin people past and present who have been the stewards of this land. I recognize that many of you are participating from across the country and may be situated on other Indigenous territories. I encourage you to take a moment to reflect on the lands you occupy and the communities that care for them. On a personal note, I'd like to say that it's important for us to recognize what we've all gained from the various Indigenous communities that have helped us learn how to not just survive but thrive in Canada from all of our origins.

All right, today's session is designed especially for early career public servants looking to better understand the foundations of a successful career in the government. You'll hear about essential concepts like the public good, professional neutrality, the public service bargain, core ideas that shape the norms, values, and expectations of our profession. We're honoured to be joined by two distinguished scholars, former federal public servants themselves and thought leaders in Canadian public administration.

[00:01:56 Dr. Alex Marland and Dr. Jared Wesley appear in separate video chat panels.]

Hello, gentlemen. First, we have Dr. Alex Marland who is a professor of political science at Acadia University. Hi Alex.

Dr. Alex Marland (Professor of Political Science, Acadia University): Hi there.

Lainy Destin: In Nova Scotia. As the Jarislowsky Chair in Trust and Political Leadership, he is developing a program to prepare the next generation of political leaders. Prior to becoming a professor, he worked, as I mentioned previously, as a public servant and with Transport Canada – for those of you who are from there – in Ottawa and with multiple departments in the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador in St. John's. So, both provincial and federal experience, that's great. And then, we also have Dr. Jared Wesley – hello – who is a professor in political science and member of the Black Faculty Collective at the University of Alberta, Director of the School of Politics and Democracy. He's building a series of online courses to teach students and professionals about political acumen. He has served in various provincial government roles in Alberta and Manitoba, including intergovernmental relations and cabinet coordination. So, together, these gentlemen co-authored the Public Servants Guide to Government in Canada. It's meant to be a practical guide and an insightful resource that connects the academic foundations of public service with the realities of working in government. Their presentation today will explore key strategies of navigating public service culture, how to provide sound advice – because that's primarily our jobs – building meaningful partnerships, and maintaining professional integrity both online and offline. I've got to tell you all that I've had the chance to read it and it is indeed a gem, and I've been in the public service for 15 years now. So, thank you.

With that, please join me in warmly welcoming Dr. Alex Marland and Dr. Jared Wesley, Professors, over to you.

Dr. Alex Marland: Hey, thanks for that wonderful introduction, Lainy. So, I get the pleasure of chatting first. I just want to make it clear to everybody that as professors, we're not actually here to try to sell a book. We're actually trying to share information. That matters more to us than anything else. For anybody who is interested in the book, it's actually not that thick, like it's pretty small. And so, it's meant to be really just focused on helping you understand how to be a public servant, what the expectations are in the public service, and how to advance your career. So, the presentation we're about to give is just kind of touching on some of those high-level elements. And again, you won't need to buy the book because you'll have everything you need to know just out of this presentation coming up. So, we'll get going here. So, we're really going to just try to get you to think about, who are public servants? What kinds of things do public servants do? And so, then, what we are going to be doing is talking about, how is it that we best serve the public good when we're working for government, at whatever level that may be? And also, as public servants, how is it you can find your fit within democracy more broadly?

So, one thing I think that is a good place to start is to think about, why is it that Jared and I wrote this guide? Why did we put it together? So it's the second edition which means we've updated it. We made a lot of revisions to the first version. We really reworked it, essentially. But when we originally decided that this was something we wanted to share, a connection that Jared and I have is that in different areas of the country, we were each working in the public service and we were really drawn to each other in the fact that we can draw on our experiences working in government, and then, of course, becoming professors, you end up drawing a lot on books. And sometimes, things that you read in books don't always work out in practice. And so, we were trying to come up with something that would really help people. And then, for me personally, I was in Newfoundland, and when I was a professor there – I'm now in North Scotia – it was really clear that students needed some sort of a little guide, particularly anybody who was in co-op or internships and just starting out in their career, to try to understand, how does government actually work? Nobody… you get some training but the training doesn't always help you navigate that. So, the whole idea was to create something that was very short, concise, and easy to reference that can be kind of enduring, so that anybody could pick it up, especially if you've never done a course in political science or never done a course in public administration.

[00:06:30 A slide appears with the following text:

Public Servants

• non-partisan employees of government
• work in departments
• support ministers]

And so, the thing that we really want to get through is some very basic concepts. And so, if you are working in government as a public servant, one of the number one things is you are non-partisan. And for a lot of people, that can be hard to distill because you may be partisan in your private life. But when you are working in the government, you set that aside. You are a professional who is going to act in a diligent manner regardless of your personal political views, and public servants, of course, are working in departments, and maybe you're working in agencies and this kind of thing, but it's useful to think of government as, it's an enormous organization so it has to be structured and it's got to be focused. And so, part of what we're trying to explain to people is just really helping them understand how large government is and why it's structured in all these different ways, and part of that is to be able to support ministers. Because of course, ministers are the ones who are partisan. Ministers are the ones who are the elected officials who are appointed just to essentially become the head of a department or potentially an agency, and they are the ones who are going to provide the political partisan direction of where to go. And as a public servant, you may not always like that, you may think that privately, but publicly and when you're performing your job, it's really important to remember that you are non-partisan.

[00:07:54 A slide appears with the following text:

The Public Good

• defined by government
• endorsed in elections
• overseen by the legislature
• advised by public servants
• our role: enable collective decision & actions]

Now, the public good is a really big part. This is almost a source of pride as a public servant because there's so many great reasons for working in government. And let's face it, sometimes there's some frustrations but one of the motivating things about working in government is the idea of helping society, helping people and doing good things, and so trying to figure out what those things are related to the government, the governing party, ministers, premiers, prime ministers, figuring out at any given time what are political priorities, what matters, and what is the pathway to move forward. So, this comes forward in elections. The legislature is a big part of figuring out, where are our priorities, what is the legislation that's going to move forward, what is in a government budget, and what should be supported and passed? And of course, public servants are playing a constant role behind the scenes in helping move all these things forward. So, collectively, as public servants, what you're trying to do is make sure that you are providing competent, capable information that is going to enable collective decisions and actions.

[00:09:00 A slide appears with the following text:

Indigenous Perspectives

• reconciliation is score to the public good
• learn about treaties, history, and governance
• practice perspective taking]

Dr. Jared Wesley (professor of political science, University of Alberta): Yeah, Alex. And as part of this discussion around what is the public good, what ought government do or not do, it's an evolving concept, right? And different governments at different times in different parts of the country have defined the public good in different ways. One evolving area of consensus though is that the public good contains a respect for treaties and Indigenous rights, and this is bound up in commitments to reconciliation and that looks different in different parts of the country too, right? But it's important as public servants that we understand how our minister, our individual unit interprets that commitment to reconciliation so that we can understand how we can best support that particular part of defining the public good. I think the rest of the book also talks about how public servants have a very specific role in both supporting ministers to define what the public good is and implementing it, and that's bound up in something that's called the public service bargain.

Dr. Alex Marland: All right. So, this is an example of one of the sort of charts that we have and tables and figures that we have in this book, to just summarize things.

[00:10:14 A slide appears with the following text:

Politicians in Cabinet

• Provide: Merit-based hiring and promotions, Public accountability for decisions
• Receive: Evidence-informed advice, Agenda execution

Non-partisan public servants

• Provide: Fearless advice, Loyal implementation
• Receive: Competitive pay, benefits, job security anonymity

The Public Service Bargain

• The implicit agreement between elected officials and public servants that balances political leadership with non-partisan advice and administration]

And so, you're not expected to memorize all this, we're not going to be testing you on it, but it's really to keep in mind a fundamental concept. So, this is an example where the literature in public administration is something that we were looking at as professors and trying to distill it so that public servants who may not be familiar with these concepts can get this sort of basic training and knowledge about it. And so, it's the whole idea that the public service bargain is about ensuring that elected officials who, of course, are accountable to the public and accountable to each other and to some extent through the legislature, they are working with public servants, and what's going to end up happening is there's going to be a level of non-partisan advice that's coming forward. And then, they end up putting a political lens on it. And so, the whole element of all of this is people will say things like, well, speaking truth to power. And I would say, well, how do we know what truth is? What really matters is quality information is coming from the public service up to ministers and to other decisionmakers. They are making decisions. And then, what ends up happening is there's a level of implementation that ends up following from there.

[00:11:22 A slide appears a photo of federal minister Mélanie Joly speaking at a podium next to the following text:

Respecting Ministerial Authority

• Ministers define the public good
• Public servants advise & implement]

So, part of this and a key message that we think is really important for people to understand, is that it is not up to individual public servants, or frankly public servants as a collective, to just find what is the public good. That is for people who run in elections and get elected, and the people who specifically get elected and get appointed to cabinet or who lead the governing party and of course are head of government or premier or prime minister. Obviously, there's also governments at the municipal level and this sort of thing. The bottom line is it is those people who figure out where a government should be going. As public servants, if you think about kind of a hierarchy, public servants are lower down in the hierarchy serving their political masters, and a really important thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the time, you may like this and you may agree with it but there's also going to be times that you do not. And the reality is, as a professional public servant, your job is to marshal things forward within the boundaries of the law and this sort of thing that your political masters are asking you to do.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, and so there are these trade-offs involved in the public service bargain which dates back centuries, right? I mean, this is something that was originated in the U.K., it was evolved in the United States, and then Canada has adopted in its own special way. And in return for that loyal implementation and fearless advice that public servants provide to ministers of the Crown, they receive some job security and some anonymity, right? There's this notion, you can't provide fearless advice to someone with all kinds of options and the risks associated with those different options and your recommendation if you fear that your advice might be attached to you on the front page of the newspaper, for example, or you might fear that your job security is such that if you provide fearless advice, you might face retribution from a minister for doing so. And so, the public service bargain is really built around those kinds of principles.

[00:13:20 A slide appears with the following text:

Upholding the Bargain

Fearless Advice

• Ground advice in evidence, not opinion
• Present all viable options and implications
• Frame advice within the government's priorities
• Anticipate risks and challenge

Loyal Implementation

• This is evidence-informed decision-making
• Chain of command is key to democratic accountability
• Explain, don't defend, government decisions
• Maintain political neutrality beyond the office

Challenges

• Saying too little or too much]

So, what are public servants expected to do? Well, in terms of providing fearless advice, it's important to know that public servants' role is to provide enough information and evidence in a way that allows decisionmakers to engage in what we call evidence-informed decision-making. There's this myth out there, I think, and you and I have talked about this quite a bit, Alex, that all decision-making in government should be evidence-based. Well, there are other considerations that ministers must take into account. You talked about the political advice that they might receive from partisan staffers, for example or public opinion, or sometimes your evidence might conflict with evidence that they're getting from another source.

Dr. Alex Marland: How do you even define evidence?

Dr. Jared Wesley: Well, yeah, and different ministers in different governments define what they like in terms of evidence. So, it's important, I think, when you're providing that fearless advice, to keep in mind you're providing it in a way that allows decisionmakers to make evidence-informed choices. And in doing so, in my experience – I'm sure yours is the same – the times when we receive advice back or briefing notes get bounced back from a minister's office and so on, it's often because they want us to flesh out more options, not provide less information but rather provide more, and provide more information on how to communicate it to the public or the implications of choosing a particular route. So, in that sense, I always enjoyed that part of the public service when I was there, because you mentioned that public servants are lower down the chain of command, certainly, but there's also more room for creativity in that sense and providing that kind of… those kinds of options that ministers demand.

And then, once the decision is made, it's up to public servants to loyally implement that, right? And this is an important part of that evidence-informed decision-making process. As Alex mentioned, the chain of command is actually really important in terms of democratic accountability. You may disagree with the decision that was made. You may have fought vehemently for a particular policy recommendation and find that the government didn't go with it. But at the end of the day, it's not your role to substitute your own judgement for those of elected officials, right? And in the book, we talk about how there are some very, very rare circumstances where a government may be acting in an unconstitutional way and so on. But even in those circumstances, acting on your own, with your own judgement without consulting unions, lawyers, supervisors, and so on, is not the right way to go, and I'll explain a little bit more about that in a moment. Sometimes, public servants are expected to explain why a particular public policy decision was made, and the higher up the food chain you go, up to a deputy minister, you might find yourself in front of a public accounts committee or something explaining why a decision was made, it's important to know that the bargain, the public service bargain, dictates that you're not there to defend the government's decision, right? You're there instead just to explain the policy inputs that went into that particular decision.

And before I move on to the next slide, did you have something to add?

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah, I just wanted to throw in there, I think we also need to remember that there's a lot of public servants who are not directly ever interacting with the minister, especially in the federal government, you may never meet the minister whatsoever, and there's also an awful lot of people who might be what we would call front-line workers, street-level bureaucrats in many respects. So, maybe there's somebody who's operating a ferry. Maybe there's somebody who's involved in IT. Maybe there's someone who's providing levels of front-line service and they will not interact directly with politicians. But regardless of that, the message is the same, and that is that if you are given instructions, the expectation is you are to follow those instructions. And of course, you can always question them and ask… provide input. But generally, it's a chain of command where you are following what the… essentially the orders and directives of the person above you.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, and some of the challenges that public servants, regardless of whether they're public-facing or minister-facing, confront is that they feel the pressure to either say less than what they want or they feel the pressure to say more than they're comfortable saying. And so, let's walk through some of those challenges that we confront in the book.

[00:17:32 A slide appears with the following text:

"Political neutrality doesn't mean we're a-political or indifferent to politics"

Political neutrality

• Good policy and top-notch programs and services will improve the government's standing with voters, but it is not your job to advocate a partisan agenda or help politicians get re-elected]

The first is this notion of political neutrality. And in the book, we make a point, and I think every chapter title has the word politics or political in it, because the work of the public service is inherently political. It's supposed to be non-partisan. You are not there to ensure that the government of the day gets re-elected but you are there to ensure that they are able to implement the agenda that they set forth themselves and that was democratically validated through elections, and that's a key distinguishing point, right? It can feel sometimes like your work is trying to get the government of the day re-elected, but in reality, you're there just to make sure that they're able to achieve their agenda.

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah, I remember talking to a deputy minister in Newfoundland and Labrador, and that it was a change in government that happened, so one political party switched over to another, and I said to him, "How do you manage this? You've done this for years?" And he said, "One day I'm wearing a blue tie, and the next day, I'm wearing a red tie." You can kind of understand what he meant by that, and the point is that you just shift with the political winds.

[00:18:39 A slide appears with the following text:

"Ministers need the full picture to make good decisions"

Watering Down Advice

• Ministers rely on fearless advice – don't assume they only want to hear what's easy]

Dr. Jared Wesley: Another challenge that's something… we've interviewed a lot of public servants as part of our research projects as well, and we found that a lot of them feel this temptation to water down their advice, to not use that truth to power. I also agree it's not a great use of language, but they feel like they have to pull their punches or not tell ministers what they need to know but rather what they want to hear. And as I said earlier, the feedback that we get when we sent things up to cabinet and back was we want more information, not less information. And so, it's important for public servants to check their own mindset to make sure they're giving the full range of options that are available according to the evidence that's available to them at the time.

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah, but in a concise manner, right? Because everything is so fast-paced, for sure.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah.

[00:19:21 A slide appears with the following text:

"I used to frame my advice around what I thought the government should do, not what they could do"

Overstepping Your Role

• Offering multiple, viable options respects the minister's authority and protects your neutrality]

It's also important to check your place too. I mean, sometimes public servants who spent a lot of time on a file or have been trained in a particular area may feel like they have expertise in that area and that their advice is therefore somehow more authoritative than other sources of information that a minister might get. But again, it's important to remember your job is to make sure that those decisions are made in an evidence-informed way, and it might not go your way all the time, and few are the public servants that go their entire careers without having some level of disappointment in that regard.

[00:19:59 A slide appears with the following text:

"Before I hit post, I imagine it showing up in my deputy minister's inbox, or in a screen cap in some media story"

Your Digital Footprint / Votre empreinte numérique

• Would I be comfortable if my direct supervisor found out about this post? If the answer is no, it's best to sit it out]

And then, we also talk a bit about in the book how political neutrality in the digital age is now stretching beyond the workplace, right? And how a lot of folks feel pressured to be on social media for a variety of different reasons, but how that can actually interfere with your ability to provide that fearless advice and loyal implementation. And in the book, we talk about how you may be tempted, for example, to be critical of a government decision through social media or in other means, and that temptation can be really strong, right? What we say is that if this is a policy decision that you're critiquing in your own area and feel, that's out of bound, right?

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah, and the advice that I would give is if you're on social media, on your social media handle, if you are identifying yourself as a public servant, you're an employee of the government, and then you post things, that's potentially a problem. So, my advice would be to not represent yourself as a member of the government if you're going to be posting critical of things of any nature.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, and even the perception of that, because people can link you to your other bio information. There's been some cases of that that. The rule of thumb, and we have a number of them in the book, is to say, would I be okay if my supervisor saw this post, right? Would my supervisor approve this post if it were to go forward? And this is in no way infringing upon your rights as a Canadian under the Charter. We want to make it clear that you have the right to say what you want, but there are career limitations that come with those kinds of decisions. So, the free speech does not come without consequences.

Dr. Alex Marland: And you have the right to be stupid too.

Dr. Jared Wesley: [laughs] You can quote us on that. And lastly, I think it's important to remember that as public servants, we have a duty to maintain confidentiality. There are some times when we have information that the general public does not, that we may feel it's important for them to have.

[00:21:52 A slide appears with the following text:

"My ability to make a difference depends on trust"

Confidentiality

• As a public institution, government takes confidentiality and secrecy extremely seriously]

And there have been some cases, particularly during the pandemic, in some provinces, where public servants had taken it upon themselves to leak information to the press or to the opposition and so on, and we make it clear in the book that that's not following the public service bargain in any way. That is, again, a career-limiting move that comes with consequences, but we also remind folks that there are avenues for you to express your opposition to a particular decision that a government may have made. You can go through your supervisor, you can go through whistleblower legislation if it pertains to that particular part of the public service, or you can work through your union, for example. So, there are other avenues beyond breaking that important oath of confidentiality.

[00:22:35 A slide appears with the following text:

Key Takeaways

01 – Public service is political

• Know and respect the boundaries

02 – Uphold the bargain

• The trade-offs are real

03 – Embrace your role

• Public service can be rewarding]

So, the key takeaways from our brief talk here today is, number one, we hope you realize that public service is supposed to be non-partisan but it's inherently political, and the book walks you through how to know and respect the boundaries, including you're there to make sure the government achieves its agenda, not there to get the government re-elected, right? Secondly, the public service bargain has existed for centuries for a reason. It helps Canada maintains its status as one of the best functioning democracies in the world and one of the most respected bureaucracies in the world as well. And lastly, well, we've kind of talked about the boundaries of your role here too, knowing where those guideposts are and knowing, as I call it, the sandbox that you're allowed to play in, actually can make the job even more fun and rewarding because you recognize the limitations of your own role which can actually free up a lot of creativity if you know the space that you're supposed to work in.

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah, more than any other job, in many respects, you can make a real difference working in government.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, and that's why I'm sure a lot of you have been drawn to this role as well.

[00:23:37 A slide appears with an image of the book "The Public Servant's Guide to Government in Canada – Second Edition:

How This Guide Can Help Your Career]

So, we hope that this guide can help your career in these ways. We actually have some other chapters that are devoted to like how to handle interview prep and how to do career-pathing and work with mentors and so on. So, if you want to learn more about that, we're happy to take some questions and also refer you to the book, which we're not trying to sell in any way.

Lainy Destin: That was great. Thank you so much, Jared and Alex. I hope that everyone appreciated your insights and your presentation. It was really succinct, yeah, great key takeaways. I wanted to ask everyone participating if they had any questions. This is the Q&A portion of the event. I have a couple of questions here that I see that can help sort of get the ball rolling in terms of getting some further insights from both of you gentlemen. So, let's see now. Let's see. I have one here. What is it about the public service culture that you think new public servants should take away?

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah, that's a great question. So, I've taught how government works workshops to a lot of public servants and new public servants, and I think a lot of them are often just shocked at how slow things are in government. That would be one of the first things. There are so many processes. There are so many levels and so many layers. Sometimes, they have no idea where things go. And so, one of the main things that comes out of that is a culture of things that seem to… sometimes things can go really fast, and other times, things can take years. So, the pace within government is one thing, and also sometimes the formalities. Everybody is just so concerned about making sure that everything is done in a professional manner. It can almost become impersonal and you really need to kind of work hard to spend time in a lunch room. You need to make sure that you're doing things socially so that you can kind of break down those formalities and have the proper sort of workplace culture that you're looking for.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, I think in the book, we spend some time talking about how if you find the job to be a grind and you have designs on being a manager yourself, take some notes, right? About how you might do some things differently. And if you feel comfortable talking to your supervisor about it, then please do. What we've heard from our interviews with senior and executive managers is they've responded well to staff saying, I don't understand why that decision was made, I'd really like to understand why the people that you report to are making those decisions so I can provide you with more streamlined advice. And actually, one of the deputy ministers in Alberta that I was working with starts to take staff that are one level and two levels below them to these [inaudible] meetings or minister… deputy ministers' meetings, which really helps them to understand how those decisions are made. And then, and I love this part, the deputy minister actually asks those staff to then provide them with advice on how to improve their delivery of that particular briefing, and that kind of team culture is a way to kind of push back against what can be sometimes this grinding and slow culture that you talked about too.

Lainy Destin: That's great advice. I can say that I've lived through definitely asking those questions, not being afraid to break down barriers around the lunch room, definitely seeking to personalize your relationship with seniors and seeing if you can join those meetings at some point. Great advice. Thank you. Here's another question. Once established in the public service, what's your practical advice for climbing the career ladder? You just gave us a nugget there in sort of like being… asking to be exposed to things, but any other pieces of advice?

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, I would actually start by challenging the notion that there's a ladder. A lot of career literature will tell you that the ladder metaphor is quite outdated, in that I always looked at my career as a bit of a jungle gym instead, right? In that sometimes you might need to move laterally or even sometimes down in an organization to get the kind of opportunities and experiences that you enjoy and that you can excel at, and that sometimes that route is actually a better way to climb up to a level that you want to perform at. The other thing I would say is that I think we need to push back on this expectation that every great public servant has an eye on management or senior and executive management. I myself have turned down those roles because it didn't fit into the life that I wanted to lead, right? Which would mean that my time is not my own, I don't have control or time with my family and my children. I'm sure a lot of people that are listening to this face similar pressures. So, I think just pushing back against that whole idea of you need to climb the ladder or you're not going to be a great public servant is important to do, and this is a safe… this book, in the book, we've tried to create a safe space for those kinds of conversations.

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah, I'd add to that and say try as best you can to have a positive attitude and exceed expectations, and why I say that is because bureaucracy as a word, it means something, right? And when we think of the word bureaucracy, we tend to think of a certain type of culture wherever, whether it's Canada or somewhere else. And from my perspective, what happens is in any large organization, there can be people who are not pulling their weight, who potentially are almost, you're like, why should I work hard if that person isn't? Don't let those people hold you back. Exceed expectations. Somebody asks you to get something done, always try and do it even better than they ask. Carry that attitude throughout your career and you'll go places.

Lainy Destin: That's great advice. Yeah, definitely lean in and really do the work. That is great, great, great advice. Thank you so much. All right. So, here's another question. In the text, you recommend seeking… well, in the book, for those of you who've been exposed to it, you recommend seeking central agency experience. First, can you just give the context for everyone for what's a central agency experience? And then [coughs], can you speak to why that might be important and ways to go about getting such experience?

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah, so I'll take the first crack at that. So, by central agency, what we really need is some of the high-level, almost like air traffic control elements of the government. So, at the federal level, the Privy Council Office is a perfect example of this, and obviously at the provincial level, there's equivalents. And if you're able to work in something that… in an oversight body essentially that is working in all of these different departments trying to coordinate things, you get a high-level view of how the government works together, the whole-of-government approach and the interactions that occur between different governments. When you're working with different departments, when you're working in a department, it's very siloed and you tend to think about things only from that perspective. But once you work in a central agency, you can see how we live in a world where things work across departments. There's constantly consultation occurring. There's so much interactive elements to it. So, you get a really good perspective. And then, when you end up potentially going into a department again, you bring so much more than if you've only ever worked in that department.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, I think moving into the centre, as we call it, in policy coordination roles, in some cases intergovernmental relations roles, finance and those kinds of agencies' influence, you also get a bird's eye view of government and start to see how policy areas that you never really considered might be part of your interest actually become interesting, right? Or you meet folks that see your talents in a different way, and a lot of folks know that… there's an old joke in Alberta at least, that anybody who spends more than eight to 12 months in a central agency is a different kind of person. So, there's kind of this expectation, you go into the centre for a while and then you go and you take the next step in your career in a line department somewhere. Well, this is an opportunity for you to meet and network with folks and get to know who would be a great manager in those other areas. I teach a lot of students who are really attracted to environmental policy and social policy, for example. But once they get into a central agency, they realize, hey, economic policy can be actually quite fun, it's not all numbers, right? For example. So, I think that getting that kind of central agency experience is important and the way to do it is actually to start meeting with folks that are in those particular roles. There are a lot… there's this myth out there that they're so busy coordinating the air traffic control, and I like that one, that they don't have time to meet with you, but their time is fast and slow too and they'd be more than happy to go out for a coffee with you and tell you about what it looks like.

Lainy Destin: That's great. By the way, everyone, summertime is a great time to chat people up. Before Parliament comes back, great time to chat people up, to reach out to people through GEDS or your networks. All right. Thanks again, gentlemen. Okay, okay, here's one. If we're still in school while working in the government, should we abstain from certain conversations? Certain fields of studies need to talk about the government and critiques can happen. Where's the line? So, I guess it's like you're in a poli sci class, you're in an economic class, you're in sort of like an Indigenous studies class or something, and you can tell different contexts where that can arise. So, gentlemen?

Dr. Alex Marland: Sure. I mean, from my perspective, it's really not revealing things that are your… having privilege access to in your job. So, if you want to talk about government in the abstract, let's say you work in… I'll just make up the Department of Transportation. So, you're in the Department of Transportation and you're in a class and they're talking about environment. Well, why can't you talk about environment in government? You can. But if all of a sudden, the conversation goes into the role of the government in transportation, then all of a sudden you might want to sit that out.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, and that's hard and it's easier said than done because especially when we're early on in our careers and we're working in something we're really interested in, it can be really tempting to be in the know, right? And want to share something, but the confidentiality rules apply there too. A lot of the students that I work with in our Master's of Policy Studies program at the U of A, they have to do capstones in government and that often creates a lot of the tensions that you're talking about here too, Lainy, where the students will have to research something that's kind of part of their day job but then a professor has to read it, right? And so, we always coach students to make sure that you're working very closely and transparently with both your work supervisor and your academic supervisor to let everyone know what everybody is seeing. So, that academic supervisor might insist that you have a critical element of your research that is actually criticizing government in a constructive way but your boss might not want that to be part of e-mail traffic. And so, having those conversations with the leads of your programs and your employment supervisor and being transparent about it is really important.

Dr. Alex Marland: I'm just going to actually add one quick remark and that is a skill that is worth building is one of being discreet because that leads to people trusting you. If they know that they can tell you things and that you're not going to go out and blab them, then that means that you are more likely to be trusted with other information and move things up. I often think about, even just in personal conversations with people and sensitive things come up, be a sponge, absorb, absorb, but that doesn't mean you have to broadcast it, right?

Lainy Destin: Again, that's great advice. Here's another good question, if you're ready to handle it. Any advice on how to move through government when you are a subject matter expert? Should you abandon specialization for more generalized roles in order to advance or in order to have a rich career?

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, I guess it depends on what you mean by advance. So, a lot of governments including the Government of Canada do prize experience in a bunch of different roles when it comes to executive management, for example. And in some cases, they're very deliberate when you get to that level that you develop operational policy experience, strategic policy experience, that you work in a line department and a central agency in order to move up to the next level. So, I always tell folks early in your career is a time to experiment a bit, right? And push yourself outside of your comfort zone in your area of expertise, because quite frankly, if you're trained in it, you have… if you're a scientist, for example, you can always go back to that. There's not like… once you're in the Government of Canada, for example, and you have that academic background, there's going to be no shortage of opportunities for you to demonstrate that expertise. But if there's something that's just a little bit outside of your area of expertise and your comfort zone, early in your career is a time to explore it. You might find that you really like it and you want to stay there, right? I didn't think I'd be really into cabinet coordination. That's where I ended up. I thought I was going to be in intergovernmental relations for life, but one of my supervisors said, "You get locked in here, then you're not going to have those opportunities." Because if you stay in that area of specialization, there's only so much movement you can do, right? There's only so many positions above you. So, early in your career is a time to experiment.

Dr. Alex Marland: I'm just going to add to that. Be excellent, and I know that sounds kind of trite, but honestly, if you are a very strong worker, it almost doesn't matter whether or not you're specializing or you're a generalist. People will seek you out. They will want you to work hard. And a really good proxy for this, we live in a world now where everybody is inundated with e-mail in the workplace. E-mail is essential. It's a critical element. I realize there's other ways to communicate. But if you're somebody who's on top of your e-mail, replying to things, people will notice that and they'll be like, okay, this person is a hard worker, they're on top of things, I can trust them with things, compared to somebody who lets their e-mails sort of not get answered and everybody's wondering what's going on. So, try to really excel at everything you do and it doesn't matter whether you're specializing or whether you're a generalist.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Most great managers will tell you this, we've interviewed them, we've asked, they're looking for good people that do good work well.

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah.

Dr. Jared Wesley: And their attitude is that if they can do good work well, I can train them in the specifics of the policy area, right? And so, looking for those opportunities might be a way to overcome that reticence to, again, step outside your comfort zone.

Lainy Destin: Again, great advice, gentlemen. Being good too also means being reliable, if I can add to that, being present when you need to all the time so people know that you are good. Here's a little segue here in terms of sort of how we feel about our positions, how new public servants can feel. So, some in the audience may be dealing with imposter syndrome. That is when you doubt your abilities and accomplishments despite evidence to the contrary, in fear of being exposed as a fraud. So, what are some ways to address or quell that feeling as a new public servant. You've already touched on a lot of that, just do good, do well, be consistent. It's already really rich advice but there is that feeling sometimes when you're new at it and there is this culture of expertise. How would you advise people on how to deal with imposter syndrome?

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, and we encounter this all the time in academia too, and a lot of public servants are now coming out of university with advanced degrees or going back and forth. So, I understand it a lot. I coach a lot of students and new public servants on this. My best piece of advice is to know that imposters don't get imposter syndrome. If you are honestly trying to fake your way through the world and bluff on your credentials and your expertise, you're not going to be worried about being an imposter. You're just going to play the role. So, the fact that you're actually worried about this kind of thing is a positive sign. It shows, to an extent, an element of humility.

And the second piece of advice is to know that our system is not just in government. You said bureaucracy has this, has certain negative connotations, but most workplaces cultivate this in staff, unfortunately, right? To make you feel lesser than. There are some supervisors who always want to be the smartest person in the room and may make you feel less than if you don't come fully prepared for a briefing. You've got to be prepared to deal with those folks but know that that's the system and the culture that that person is trying to cultivate and that you can push back on it. The best supervisors I've ever had in the public service were ones than took the approach of hoping to heck that they were not the smartest person in the room and trying to assemble other smart people around them to make good decisions, and those are the types of managers you should seek out, and the types of managers, if you want to, that you should try to be.

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah, I'm going to actually almost flip it around, Lainy, and I would say something else to think about is people are overconfident, right? Especially when you're coming out of school. So, you could come out of school and you can be ready to go and you can think, I'm ready to hit things at this level, and it's important to keep in mind that the people you're working with might have 10 years, 20 years, possibly 30 years job experience and life experience. So, just because you came out of school doesn't necessarily prepare you for the way things work in a place where they are. So, really trying to find a way not to be overconfident about things is important. I always keep in mind, there used to be a commercial on television, and there was this person who came in and just got hired and they had a graduate degree and they walked in and they needed to be able to get something copied on the photocopier, back when photocopiers were always used. And so, he's in there and he's talking to a secretary, and she says, okay, well, here's the photocopier, and he looks at her kind of in a snobby way and he's like, no, no, no, you don't understand, I have a graduate degree, and she just looks at him and she says, well, then I'd better show you how to use it, right?

Dr. Jared Wesley: [laughs]

Lainy Destin: [laughs]

Dr. Alex Marland: So, (inaudible) is learning from the people you're working with, regardless of what their level of formal education might be.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Absolutely, and I had the privilege but unfortunate circumstance of being involved in a bunch of natural disaster responses in Alberta, between fires and floods and so on, and what ends up happening is they will empty out different units to send people to the front lines, to hand out debit cards and so on, and I remember I was in machinery of government in that time and my job was to brief the Premier every week on the top 212 issues facing the province. And in normal times, there was a team of 14 of us, and because we had to respond to the Southern Alberta floods, it was me left. And so, if I'd taken the approach of, I'm not photocopying, I'm not stuffing binders, I'm not doing all of this stuff, it just would have not have gotten done, and I think great teams are ones that cultivate that sense that it's all hands on deck, I don't care where you came from, I care what you bring, and it becomes really obvious in times of crisis for sure.

Lainy Destin: That's great. I mean, both the imposter syndrome sort of not being… not feeling like an imposter and the overconfidence, those are two great points to make. There is a balance to be stricken, definitely. Thank you both. Now, we've got a really interesting question here. All of them have been really great but we've got another one. Do you recommend moving from department to department or staying within one?

Dr. Alex Marland: It's a great question. I think a lot of this obviously depends on what opportunities exist. So, I can just really… I think, really, the starting point is how often you'd be moving, right? So, if you were talking about bouncing around and constantly moving, I'm not sure that would be great advice because you want… anybody who's looking to hire you is going to be like, well, this person is only going to stick around for a few months before they're going to bolt again. So, the length of time you're in a place would come to mind. And to me, you really need to almost be in most jobs at least a year before you even start really understanding it. And after two years, the amount of information you're absorbing probably gets constrained a little bit. So, the first thing I would say is it would depend how frequently you're looking at moving.

Dr. Jared Wesley: I would also say to you, stay with good teams, right? I mean, we often forget that especially if you're in an office work situation, I know that there's some folks that work from home too, but I mean, you're physically with these people more than members of your family and close friends. And so, while you may not necessarily find the work particularly stimulating, I can't count on my two hands or your two hands the number of people who have come to me and said, it sounded like a really good policy opportunity to do some really challenging stuff but the team environment was horrible, I wish I would have stayed, and I know some people, they're very close to me, who actually have gone back very quickly after making that choice to switch. So, I'd say before you make the choice to switch, if you're invited after the formal interview to do a fit interview, which happens sometimes where they'll invite you to come in and see the office, take that as an opportunity, right? To go in and see, well, where will I be working? The number of people I've talked to that said I didn't know I would be working in a windowless cubicle, that's not what I pictured, I'm going to be eight hours of my life in that? Well, that's part of the decision, right? Can I go for coffee with some members of the team, right? This comes… by the way, this comes after the offer. Do not do this before the offer is on the table or before they invite you to a fit interview, but that's fair game and I think as a manager, I was always open to that. I always thought, well, this is somebody who's really committed and really wanted to make sure that they are a good fit, which is good news. And quite frankly, the managers that tell you, no, you cannot come in and meet any of my staff, you have to do it sight unseen, that might be a red flag too, right? So, I think making sure that you're not just chasing opportunities because they look good on paper but making sure that they make good sense as a fit for you is important.

Lainy Destin: I've got to tell you guys, I'm dead serious, you guys are offering gems here. I hope everyone's taking copious notes.

Dr. Jared Wesley: We need to write a second book. Some of this isn't in there [laughs].

Dr. Alex Marland: Lainy, do you want to write a book with us?

Lainy Destin: Pardon?

Dr. Alex Marland: You want to write a book with us?

Lainy Destin: [laughs] I would. No, but seriously, these are all gems that I know that in becoming an executive I've thought of, and I'm like, yep, yep, yep, instead of hard knocks, listening to you guys would have been easier, better [laughs]. But again, no pain, no gain. So, I've got another question for you. Okay, okay, okay, here's a funny one. You may be uncomfortable but some people want to know where they can access your book.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, I mean, the best, the best source is to go to University of Toronto Press.

Lainy Destin: All right.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, look for the second edition. There's a first edition floating around, but as Alex said, we actually did spend a lot of time updating it and thinking about things in a bit of a different way. So, that's there. You can also get it in your major online bookstores as well. But in the environment that we're in, making sure that we support our local presses and bookstores is important to us.

Lainy Destin: That sounds great. UofT Press.

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah, sometimes it's cheaper to get it from the distributors than it is from the press itself. But anyway, you can get it online.

Lainy Destin: Yeah, super. Thank you, gentlemen. Okay, do you have any dos and don'ts or best practices to share on the use of A.I. by public servants in government? I mean, it's the hot topic. I know that we've been getting trained on it over at the Canada School and even at my previous department at National Defence. So, let us know what your ideas are.

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah, well, I mean, this is something we talk about a little bit in the book, and the main thing is trying to understand what your corporate policies are essentially around it. Let's be honest. Everybody is constantly trying to figure this out. And whatever way we answer now, six months from now, it may have changed. The bottom line is there's an ethical element to this, but beyond the ethical element is A.I. actually generates garbage, sometimes it looks good but sometimes it doesn't. I can't tell you the number of times that I have to experiment with it to try and prepare for some assignments, and it's spewing out information but because I'm an expert in certain narrow areas, I can figure out that what it's generating is actually made up and fake. The problem, of course, when you're working in the government is there's just no room for error. Your job as a public servant is to provide facts, and information generated through A.I. may not be factual and that is going to be a serious problem. So, you have to be really careful about the difference between using A.I. to generate information versus using A.I. to clean up information that you yourself generated.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, I mean, south of the border, we're now seeing stories almost daily about how certain high-ranking secretaries are releasing reports that have hallucinated citations in the back, right? There's high-level government reports that have been released. I just think, can you imagine if you put something in a briefing note that a minister ended up saying and it was wrong, and the minister gets called out for using misinformation. I mean, that's beyond the [inaudible]. I think… and we're grappling with this honestly in our graduate programs and other programs at university too, and we're learning along the way. Work with your supervisor to understand, what are the expectations? I agree with Alex. Treating A.I., if you're allowed to use it, treating it as an assistant rather than a source of authority can be helpful, and I always use the rule of thumb. It can be really tempting to have A.I. write something for you but I have a rule of thumb, I actually built it into my ChatGPT system, never give me something that is written that I can copy and paste and put it into a document, and I say that for my grad students as well. I might feed something in, a piece of writing that I have, like key messages if I'm allowed to do that, and say, can you make this… give me some advice on how to make this more concise. Notice how I didn't say rewrite this for me, but rather give me some… here's the audience, what are some tips you can give me to improve this? That way, you maintain your voice and your control over what's in that information, but that piece of advice I'm giving you right now, as you said, by the time you're watching this video, that might be out of date because your policies have changed.

Dr. Alex Marland: Yeah. In some ways, almost use it the way you would Wikipedia, right? I mean, you would not use Wikipedia as a definitive source. You would use Wikipedia as a way to help you think about things and to go track them down yourself, but anything on Wikipedia is potentially suspect and not real, and I've found lots of instances where it isn't, and the same thing for anything A.I. is generating because of course, it's getting information from the web.

Dr. Jared Wesley: I've actually adopted this mental technique where I assume ChatGPT is a 14-year-old and the information that they're going to give me, they may be really skilled at writing and pulling stuff together, but will I trust a 14-year-old with something I'm going to put in a briefing note or a cabinet document? Heck no. I'm going to verify that.

Lainy Destin: [laughs] That's a great insight. That's true. It's to provide it with instruction. Okay, here… so, we're wrapping up, gentlemen. Thanks again so much. So, here's a last question for you, okay? There have been many key takeaways from today's conversation but what might be one from each of you that you'd like to leave us with?

Dr. Alex Marland: Good question. I think for me, I'll just repeat the point that I made earlier which is to exceed expectations. So, all sorts of questions that have come up are about where to improve and what to do with my career and where to go and what's the best thing for me, and I promise you, if you are somebody who exceeds expectations, good things are going to happen in your career because other people around you are going to want you to do things.

Lainy Destin: Yes.

Dr. Alex Marland: Obviously, there's the work-life balance element and all these sorts of things, but find ways that when somebody says we need this done, you do it in a way that they're going, holy smokes, that's even better than I would have thought. It's done on time. You're… as you say, Lainy, you were present. You were involved. You were engaged. Always try to be that person as best you can. Forget about what everybody else is doing. Just be excellent.

Lainy Destin: Yeah.

Dr. Jared Wesley: Yeah, I would say too that there's this tendency, especially for folks who have spent their entire lives in the public service to think that the grass is greener on the other side. And for those of us that have moved in and out of the public service,  I think we have a different kind of appreciation for the benefits and some of the drawbacks of being a public servant. I'm reminded of one. Last time I made the move out of public service and into academia, one of my mentors said, "Before you make this move out of the public service, Jared, I want you to answer one question. When was the last time you felt guilty as a public servant?" And I said, "I don't think that's an emotion I felt very often because I clock in, I give my best advice, I go home. I can sleep at night because I'm not the one that's ultimately making the policy decision. I come back the next day, I figure out what the decision was and I go and I implement it." But those that don't work in the public service, whether it's in the private sector or in academia, you make a lot of decisions that have a direct impact on your career. You could always be doing more, you could always be doing this and that, and there's always this sense of guilt, right? That you could be doing more or that you should have made a different decision. So, I see that in a positive way because you've got a specific role as a public servant, spread loyal implementation and fearless advice. And as long as you're doing that, you can take pride in your role.

Lainy Destin: That's great. All right. So, thank you both so very much for your time, for this great piece of work that I plan on making sure that all of my new employees use in the future. It's a great reference. So, on behalf of the Canada School of Public Service, we'd like to thank you both, Alex and Jared, for this rich conversation, for the great advice, and for your time, and I'd like to thank you all across the country for being part of the discussion and I hope that this discussion was inspiring. I hope that you got a sense of how great and valuable and important it really is to be a public servant. So, I encourage you to visit the Canada School of Public Service website to look up any other future learning opportunities. And once again, thank you, Alex, thank you, Jared. Thank you all for taking part in the discussion, and have a great afternoon.

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