The Manion Lecture: Serving Canada in 2025 (LPL1-V54)

Transcript: The Manion Lecture: Serving Canada in 2025

[00:00:00 Title page. Text on screen: Manion Lecture; Serving Canada in 2025; featuring the Honourable Jocelyne Bourgon.]

[00:00:16 A series of images: the Earth from space; a global map with highlighted connections between major cities; the Canadian flag.]

Narrator: The world is shifting. Global alliances are being tested, and nations everywhere are rethinking their place on the world stage. Canada is no exception.

[00:00:26 A series of images of people in an urban environment: walking through a busy square; children playing by a fountain; an aerial view of Parliament Hill.]

Narrator: As a country, as people, and as a public service, we have faced pivotal moments in our history.

[00:00:36 A series of images of Jocelyne Bourgon: at the Charlottetown Negotiations; with Brian Mulroney; her official photo; with Jean Chrétien; copies of the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Annual Reports to the Prime Minister on the Public Service of Canada, written by Jocelyne Bourgon.]

Narrator: From the Charlottetown negotiations to leading public service reform, Jocelyne Bourgon—then becoming Clerk of the Privy Council—was a driving force in shaping key moments for both Canada and our public service.

Narrator: Her leadership extends beyond Canada's borders. Through her work with the OECD, CAPAM and the UN, Mme Bourgon has seen firsthand the global shifts that continue to shape our future.

[00:00:48 A series of images of Jocelyne Bourgon: with Jean Chrétien and other senior officials; a group photo with colleagues on the steps of Parliament; group photos taken at the CAPAM High Level Seminar, Oct 4-5, 2005, New Delhi, and the UN.]

[00:01:03 A series of images: Two books, The New Synthesis of Public Administration Fieldbook, and The New Synthesis of Public Administration: Serving in the 21st Century; Jocelyne Bourgon in a meeting with other senior officials.]

Narrator: Her efforts on the New Synthesis project highlight the importance of learning not only from our own experiences, but from the lessons shared by others around the world.

[00:01:13 A series of images: diverse groups of people in discussion; a person hiking a glacier; a person walking along a snowy sidewalk; photos of Tommy Douglas, Lester B. Pearson, Pierre Elliott Trudeau, Brian Mulroney, Jean Chrétien, Jocelyne Bourgon, Paul Martin, and Stephen Harper. ]

Narrator: Once again, we are preparing to meet the challenges and changes ahead. The way forward will demand not only the wisdom of experience but also a willingness to learn from those who have led through times of change.

[00:01:30 A series of images: the Proclamation of the Constitution Act, 1982; scientists performing an experiment in a lab; an aerial view of the Canadian flag.]

Narrator: From past reforms to future innovations, the role of the public service remains a vital force in guiding Canada through uncertainty.

[00:01:37 Text on slide: Can ideas from the past help invent a better future?]

Narrator: Can ideas from the past help invent a better future?

[00:01:43 Text on slide: Welcome]

Narrator: Welcome to Manion 2025.

[00:01:50 The audience applauds. Split screen: Nathalie Laviades Jodouin speaking from a lectern onstage; a slide of Nathalie Laviades Jodouin's official photo. Text on slide: Master of Ceremonies / Nathalie Laviades Jodouin.]

Nathalie Laviades Jodouin: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Manion Lecture, Serving Canada in 2025. Thank you so, so much for joining us this afternoon.

00:02:02 Nathalie Laviades Jodouin appears full screen. Text on screen: Nathalie Laviades Jodouin, Senior Vice President, Public Sector Operations and Inclusion Branch, Canada School of Public Service.]

Nathalie Laviades Jodouin : My name is Nathalie Laviades Jodouin, I am the Senior Vice-President at the Canada School of Public Service, and I will be your master of ceremonies this afternoon.

Nathalie Laviades Jodouin: I would like to acknowledge and respect the Anishinaabeg Algonquin Nation on whose unceded lands we gather. We honour the rich history, culture, and languages, and recognize their continued connection as guardians of these lands and waters. Let us take a moment to appreciate the land, the people, and the history. We are grateful to live, work, and learn on this land, and we honour their enduring presence and stewardship. As we continue to acknowledge the importance of reconciliation, we are committed to building respectful, meaningful relationships with Indigenous peoples and recognize the significant contributions of Indigenous communities.

It is my great pleasure, once more, to welcome you all to this year's Manion Lecture: Serving Canada in 2025. Today's event will feature a presentation from our keynote speaker, the Honourable Jocelyne Bourgon, followed by a panel discussion with distinguished guests who will share their unique perspectives, especially as we delve into the challenges and opportunities of public service reform.
I would also like to acknowledge the Manion family who can take pride in the legacy of John Lawrence Manion, the Inaugural Director of the Canadian Center for Management Development, whose name is honoured through this event.

For over 30 years, the Manion Lecture has been one of the School's most distinguished annual events. It offers us the opportunity to exchange with eminent speakers from diverse backgrounds, professions and points of view. It also offers federal public service leaders the opportunity to be challenged by other professionals who question the status quo, wonder about the future and, through their perspectives, help us broaden our horizons.

Our keynote speaker this afternoon is perfectly in keeping with the tradition of Manion Lectures.

However, before she takes the stage, I do have to admit that I've been holding on to a little secret. We actually have a very special guest who was eager to take part in today's event by helping us kick off this next moment. Someone near and dear to our keynote speaker's heart, and someone who knows her in a truly unique and personal way. Please joining me in welcoming to the stage her son, Francis Bilodeau, who's here to give a very special introduction.

[00:04:33 The audience applauds. Split screen: Francis Bilodeau takes the stage; a slide of Francis Bilodeau's official photo. Text on slide: Special Guest / Francis Bilodeau.]

Francis Bilodeau: Hello everyone, hello mom.

[00:04:51 Francis Bilodeau appears full screen. Text on screen: Francis Bilodeau, Associate Deputy Minister, Innovation Science and Economic Development Canada.]

Francis Bilodeau: For those who don't know me, my name is Francis. I am Associate Deputy Minister at the Department of Innovation, Science and Economic Development, which has nothing to do with my reason for being here today. I am here to honour and introduce my mother, Jocelyne Bourgon, our speaker this year for the Manion Lecture.

It is, for me, more than a privilege to introduce you today. More than anything you have shared with me your love of the institutions, of the public service, and of the Canadians that we serve. You've always reminded me that the public service belongs to all Canadians. It's through the public service that we achieve our goals, as a country, and our collective objectives as a country. Strong public institutions matter, you've often told me. But they all happen on their own. They happen thanks to people.

All the people in this room have decided to dedicate their careers and professional lives to public service in this country, in Canada, to its citizens.

Jocelyne, my mother, has undeniably left a strong legacy and helped shape the public service, and by extension, the country. But in my case, the journey has been a bit more personal.
I can still remember trips – fairly young – While my mother was at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans where she took me to see the work she was doing.

I remember drawing the parliament from her office, at PCO, and looking at the window and drawing the parliament. And I certainly have been shaped by the numerous discussions that my mother and my father had with me around what it means to be a public servant, around policy, and around what it means to be a Canadian. For me, these have been experiences that have shaped me.

And today, Mom, as you continue your reflections on the public service, on institutions, on governance, I am happy to be able to share this passion with you and to be part of the journey. So, I would like to introduce you all to my mother, the Honourable Jocelyne Bourgon at this year's Manion Lecture. Thank you.

[00:07:12 The audience applauds. Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon takes the stage; a slide of Jocelyne Bourgon's photo. Text on slide: Keynote speaker / The Honourable Jocelyne Bourgon.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Aww, bring the Kleenex. Taki, you should not throw a speaker off balance just before giving a speech. For those who don't know me, and there are probably many of you, I am the mother of Francis Bilodeau.

[00:07:40 Jocelyne Bourgon appears full screen. Text on screen: The Honourable Jocelyne Bourgon, Founding President of Public Governance International; President Emeritus of the Canada School of Public Service; and Project Leader of the New Synthesis Initiative]

Jocelyne Bourgon: It's very moving! Thank you, Francis. Thank you for being here. It is a great pleasure to have the opportunity to speak to you. Bring the Kleenex! And it is an honour to have the chance to be a speaker at the Manion Lecture, which is a highlight in the School of Public Service's calendar of events under the direction of Taki Sarantakis. So, let's talk about public administration.

Last November, I gave a lecture in Singapore – Taki was there, in fact – about the challenges of serving in the second quarter of the 21st century. And I argued at the time that governments were facing a convergence of existential threats that are interacting with each other and therefore making the role of government ever more challenging.

For instance, climate change is the existential threat that my generation was unable to address. The risk of pandemic is as high as ever. AI is coming of age, but also bioengineering and geo engineering, and with these technologies, new risks, and opportunities. So, I proposed or suggested that serving in the second quarter of the 21st century is serving in a more dangerous world at a more challenging time. Now, that was only a few months ago, six months ago. But today, I would add that serving in 2025 is serving in the midst of the most profound geopolitical realignment in our lifetime.

When the future is uncertain; when the ideas and practices that have served us well in the past become unstuck and come undone, this is when the role of government is the most important and when the potential for innovation and invention is the greatest.

The challenge for public sector leaders the world over is to ensure that their country will be among the few that will successfully navigate through an unprecedented period of change. And your challenge is to ensure that Canada will be among them. Honestly, you could not have chosen a better time to be in government. Welcome to serving in 2025.

But to lead change in a challenging time, one needs an appreciation of the challenges at play. So, what is Canada up against? I could have selected many dimensions and I've reduced the speech to only one, which is related to current events.

[00:11:12 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and slide. Text on slide: A Protective Shield]

Jocelyne Bourgon: So, here is my short story of a short time in history. It was not until World War II that a consensus emerged that progress and peace could best be achieved through common norms, common rules, common institutions: The United Nations; the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the World Trade Organization, to name a few, were born from the ashes of two world wars. And taken together, these conventions and institutions acted as a protective shield.

[00:11:48 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and slide. Text on slide: A Protective Shield]

Jocelyne Bourgon: People of my generation were lucky enough to work under this protective dome; you are not.

These measures never amounted, really, to an international system, and it was never universally accepted, but it was sufficiently broadly respected to influence the behaviour of countries.

The principle of territorial integrity has reduced the risk of invasion, and global trade governed by the rule of law has contributed to a long period of prosperity while reducing the risk of conflict. Countries like Canada with a governance system that combines democracy, the rule of law, a market economy, and a social safety net have performed best compared to all other governance regimes throughout the 20th century.

And today, this protective shield is breaking down. Trade liberalism is moving in reverse, and protectionism is on the rise. The system that operated over the last 80 years contributed to the longest period of growth, and the longest period of peace, in modern history.

This is a remarkable achievement. The United States of America was the main architect, not the only one, but the main architect of this system. What is so remarkable about the events at play and recent changes is that the system is not falling apart because of its opponents, and there are opponents, the rise of authoritarian regimes in liberal states and so on. It is falling apart because of the action of its main architect. This is quite remarkable. Europe is discovering that its dependence on the US is making it vulnerable and that it may have to stand on its own and alone to defend Ukraine.

This will have ripple effects around the world. Japan, South Korea, or Taiwan, has no reason to believe in the US security guarantees. Taiwan's position opposite China is considerably diminished and weakened. African countries that relied on American aid will have to move closer and closer to China.

[00:14:24 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and slide. Text on slide: A Different World]

Jocelyne Bourgon: This is a different world. The US administration has also initiated a pivot on trade. Canadians are very familiar with that. The administration is of the view that free trade, under a system of international rules, no longer serves its best interests. And under this new doctrine, access to the US market is a privilege that can be monetized. And Canada is discovering that its dependence on the American market can be weaponized. So, the world has world has learned, and will not forget, that the USA is an unreliable partner, and it could even be a hostile partner when that serves its purpose.

There will be many twists and turns and chaos and confusion over the coming months and coming years. There will be attempts to appease, attempts to cajole, in an effort to restore some degree of stability. But in the end, the world will get reconfigured, and Canada must be part of it.

[00:15:42 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and slide. Text on slide: A Different World]

Jocelyne Bourgon: So, what is Canada up against? Well, this is not a trade issue. This is not a short-term issue, and it is not an aberration. The American isolationist trend took shape under previous administrations and protectionism will continue under other administrations. So, it would be a serious mistake, a colossal mistake for Canada to try to buy time and hope that all this will pass. Canada could find itself more isolated than we are today. So, the prudent course of action is to work with the US when this is mutually beneficial, work around it when it serves Canada's interests, and work with others to protect our sovereignty.

[00:16:35 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and slide. Text on slide: Warfare: Economic; Political; Psychological; Technological; Conventional]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Canada is already exposed to economic, political, psychological warfare. Canada is especially vulnerable to technological warfare, and the risk of mischief to undermine Canadian unity should not be underestimated. And that might be our greatest risk.

So, you are serving in a world of real politics, and in an asymmetrical relationship, like the one between the US and Canada. The smaller one, the smaller player, does not have the upper hand. It must be smarter, and it must play its own long game. But that, Canada can do.

[00:17:28 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and slide. Text on slide: A Governing Agenda]

Jocelyne Bourgon: The election campaign was, in many ways, fascinating. It revealed strong consensus on several fronts. Reducing interprovincial barriers, opening up to the global market, Arctic security. In the coming weeks and months, the Government of Canada will have to identify key interventions that will help Canada regain its economic sovereignty. You will have a front row seat to discussions with ministers, the government, and the cabinet, which will lead to the first Speech from the Throne, a first budget, and all the others.

But as you prepare for these discussions with your minister, keep in mind that the current circumstances offer an opportunity to accelerate changes that were needed in any event. Never let a crisis go to waste. There is an opportunity to address issues that we were unable to address. There is an opportunity to resolve issues that your predecessors could not resolve. So, to be fair, not all was well in Canada just prior to the election of President Trump.

For instance, Canadians like to think of Canada as a G7 country. And indeed, it was the seventh largest economy at the time of joining this forum in 1976. Today, it is 10th, has just been overtaken by South Korea. It is 19th in GDP per capita. It is 30th in purchasing power parity and has been on a downward trend since the mid-1980s.

So, no, this is not a problem that stems from the government's actions over the past 10 years. These problems had a long incubation period. Also keep in mind that…ensuring Canada's future prosperity means generating products and services the world needs, on terms the world is prepared to pay. It is generating higher value-added products and services the world would find hard to reproduce, or to emulate.

So, the challenge is not to preserve what was there before, hoping that that, too, will disappear and we can go back to normal. There should be no return to a time when 75% of Canada's exports were destined to a single market. This is a way of giving away our own sovereignty. The challenge is to accelerate adaptation while avoiding measures that would delay inevitable and necessary adjustment.

Keep in mind also that Canada is in a better position than its peers to deal with current circumstances and invest in its future. Canada's debt is roughly 50 percent of the GDP. It's not the most glorious position, but when we compare ourselves to others, we can quickly console ourselves. This compares to 92 percent for France, 100 percent for the United Kingdom and 205 percent for Japan. Canada has natural resources, energy diversity, abundant water and space, favourable climatic conditions, a highly skilled workforce and cutting-edge research.

Canada, unlike other countries, has the capacity and the means for building a modern, technologically advanced, and green economy. So, a crisis, yes, but an occasion for course correction.

[00:21:37 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and slide. Text on slide: A Reform Agenda]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Well, what about the public sector? Well, there again, I would say that not all was well in the public sector just prior to the election of President Trump. There were 7,000 public servants per million Canadians in 2000, but 9,000 in 2024. The number of executives has doubled, or more than doubled, over the same period of time. Now, I know there was a COVID crisis, but there are no signs that we're going back to a different ratio.

That means that citizens are justified to ask probing questions about such rapid growth. The question they are asking is, what are they getting in return? Because, from the outside looking in, this growth did not translate in better service to Canadians. Canadians have experienced some service breakdowns, long waiting time, system breakdowns. More puzzling is Canada was among the top 10 cleanest countries in the world until 2019, and it is now 15th. And corruption cases have eroded public confidence in the institution. One indicator that I find troubling is that Canada ranked sixth in e-government and digital services in 2003. This is after an intense period of downsizing. And today, in spite of rapid growth, Canada ranks 47th.

So, a solid institution, but there are course corrections needed, and a crisis is a good time to rethink some of our practices. Sooner or later, the Public Service of Canada will be asked to reduce its footprint. But how that will be done will be of critical importance. It could propel the public service forward, and prepare it for the future, and bring the course corrections needed, or it could erode its capacity to fulfill its mission in the future.

[00:24:09 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and slide. Text on slide: A Reform Agenda]

Jocelyne Bourgon: This is where some lessons from the past may help you avoid mistakes we've made and may help you figure out your own way forward. I know you cannot read this. I'll guide you. It is always a good idea to keep an eye on the fiscal framework.

[00:24:31 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide titled Fiscal Management 101, as described.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: A fiscal framework is a dynamic system, a pipeline with an input—usually the output of taxing measures; a stream, which allocates resources to different broad public objectives; and an allocation for government operations and programs administered by departments and agencies. The difference between the input and the output is the deficit. This chart is based on the 2024 budget. The revenue at the time was around 500 billion. Spending was a little higher and the deficit, just before the elections, was around 50 billion. This flow helps you keep in mind that the majority of government spending is transfers to other governments.

Health, equalization, social transfer, childcare. Or transfers to individuals, elderly benefits, child benefits, EI benefits. For the sake of simplification and discussion, let's agree that in a period of uncertainty and instability, it is not a very good time to tamper with the social safety net Canadians depends on. So, let's leave all of that aside.

This is the operating budget of the government. It was in the range of $123 billion at the time of the 2024 budget. This is where austerity measures – let me go back. This is where austerity measures would take place, if that is the decision of the Government of Canada. Now, keep in mind the scale of what you're looking at, versus the scale of that domain. Departments run programs of various kinds. Most of them are also transferred: transferred to business; transferred to associations; transferred to provinces and municipalities for infrastructure, for research, for academic support, and so on. And this is where a program review would take place if that was the decision of the Government of Canada.

This system is constantly fluctuating. A tax cut is announced... A tax is eliminated, your income drops, your deficit increases. You have a recession; your expenses go up. You have inflation, your spending is increasing, your deficit is increasing. You announce new programs; your deficit increases. This is a dynamic system and it is important to keep this in mind because it helps you make better decisions.

When imbalances become significant, between the input and the output or the allocation, that's when corrective actions become necessary. With that as a background, let me bring you back in time.

[00:28:00 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide titled Learning from 1984 to 1993, as described. /A detailed table is displayed on the screen.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: What can we learn from the period '83 to '93? The deficit reached a bit more than 8% of GDP. Just to position yourself, you're in the range of 2.5 or thereabouts. This is huge. And the government introduced a number of measures. Expenditure reviews were launched. Between 1983 and 1994, there will be 22 expenditure reduction exercises.

Now, that could be a target, and you're familiar with that. You're told, please reduce your budget by 5%. But a Treasury Board negotiating labour agreements with no adjustment to your base is a cut. Inflation without adjustment is a cut. Freezing staffing is a cut. Freezing salary is a cut. In that period of time, there were 22 expenditure reduction exercises. Now, let's learn from that period. Expenditure reviews, spending reviews – or RGS1, RGS2, as you're currently calling them – assume that it is possible to reduce government spending while preserving or maintaining every existing program and services.

Now, this has some significant consequences. Austerity measures do not improve services to citizens. They do not increase productivity, and they do not modernize government. Cuts are not savings that result from better practices leading to better results at a lower cost. And generally leads to making the wrong decisions: We cut what is easy rather than what would have lasting capacity. We are cutting training, participation in international conferences, travel, trips; all sorts of measures that would have the effect of accelerating the pace at which we learn and of building our capacity to adapt.

The greatest success of this period will have been the introduction of structural measures, a reform of the GST tax, the negotiation of the Canada/United States agreement. It wasn't a mistake to negotiate it, it was a mistake to become dependent on that deal.

[00:30:30 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide titled Learning from 1984 to 1993, as described. / A detailed table is displayed on the screen.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: So, there are lessons to learn. There's a place for austerity measures. There's a place for reducing spending, but it must be done in a way that gives you a sustainable capacity of providing better services, not just an erosion of the fabric of the public sector.

[00:30:49 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide titled Learning from 1994 to 2000 as described.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Let's zoom to 1994 to 2000. The deficit was better, slightly below 6% of GDP, but the debt had continued to increase during that period. The debt was 70% of GDP. You're in the range of 50 some, so there's room to maneuver. Your predecessors invented a different approach. We had learned that austerity measures were not getting us where we needed to go, so we invented program review.

A program review starts from the premise that to reduce government spending in a durable way, it is necessary to make decisions about the role of government in society, and to stop some programs, and to stop some services. The program review of 1995 eliminated a deficit of 6% of GDP, and that was followed by 12 years of surplus budgets and massive reinvestment in health, in research, in innovation, in infrastructure, and the like.

So, on the face of it, it was very successful, and indeed it was. The public service can be proud of its contribution to regaining Canada's fiscal sovereignty. But there's more we can learn from this period of time. The need for a program review on that scale reveals, in fact, a failure, the failure to reallocate resources on an ongoing basis. It is disruptive. 50,000 people were directly affected and everybody else indirectly. It is time-consuming. It dominated the government agenda during most of Prime Minister Chretién's first term in office. So, learning from the past doesn't mean replicating it. It means drawing lessons from it so that you can invent a better way forward.

Avenues are open to you that did not exist before, and it is possible, I am convinced, to invent and implement an approach that would allow for the continuous reallocating and redeployment of resources; a feat that your predecessors, myself included, have not managed to accomplish.

[00:33:24 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Do Better.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: So, your search for a better way could begin by expanding the range of options open to you. And in fact, the broader the scope, the better. There will be time to cut down your list to where you will decide to focus, in the end. But first, my advice would be, go broad, or go wide and build a longer list. I will just give you three examples to illustrate my point.

[00:34:02 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Make Room: Commitments]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Commitments, or outstanding commitments. A new government is perfectly justified in re-examining the promises that were made just before and during the election campaign. Some initiatives may be postponed, spread out over a longer period, or cancelled altogether. There may be better ways to achieve the desired objectives at a lower cost; and furthermore, I would say that some of the commitments that are normally made in an election campaign are contradictory.

So, reviewing these commitments is sound management. It is about reconciling a commitment to creating wealth and prosperity with a Canadian commitment to collective solidarity and fiscal responsibility. As I mentioned, some of the commitments of all parties have a certain degree of tension and contradiction. So one possibility is to review the commitments.

[00:35:11 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Make Room: Commitments; Temporary financing]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Another possibility is to review the programs with temporary financing.

I must admit this is not such a wise practice after all. Over the years, there has been an increasing number of initiatives supported by temporary financing. Familiar to you? Some programs are funded for two, three, four, five years. There are sunset programs, repeat sun setters – they die and come back. I found all kinds of names to describe them, it is really interesting. But fundamentally, the practice distorts the true picture about the size of the deficit. It gives the impression the deficit is going down. But if you know that you will repeat their funding, it's not a true picture. It puts a premium on announcement, but it leaves to others, like you, the burden of managing the situation when the funding is running out.

So, a review of programs with temporary funding could have a number of benefits. One, you could look at them and say, which ones are supporting the government priorities? You're about to find out what they are, as they are producing the speech from the throne. Which one could reduce dependency on the US? Which one could help to regain Canada's economic sovereignty? And the others could be phased out. This would be challenging, but it would free resources. Keep in mind that for some departments, temporary financing is in the range of 20 to 30% of their budget. This is huge.

[00:36:49 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Make Room: Commitments; Temporary financing; Taxation; Tax expenditures.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: What about taxation? And what about tax expenditures? Taxation has not been reviewed since – David would know better than I – since the 1960s. Tax expenditures, including tax credit, tax exemption, and the like, [have] not been reviewed seriously since the mid-1980s.

Exposing these measures to the light of day and exposing them to cabinet scrutiny would have a number of benefits. It could help ensure that it is supportive of the government agenda, that they all work in a convergent way, but it could also free more resources than any spending or program review ever could. This is to illustrate the point about, give yourself room, give yourself space to replenish [the] government war chest, but also to replenish your own contingency reserve because you will need flexibility. The list of possibilities is much longer than this, and it is for you to identify promising avenues in your respective domain of responsibility.

[00:38:09 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Simplify]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Let's take another angle. Simplify, simplify, simplify. Simplifying the organization of government; the organization of the work; government systems; legislation; regulation; reporting requirements. All these measures could generate significant savings. And on top of that, they would help introduce corrective actions that are necessary in any event.

So again, some examples to inspire your thinking.

[00:38:39 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Simplify: Agency reviews]

Experience teaches us—well, it is my experience both in Canada and abroad—that a system of government based on ministerial responsibility works better with a smaller number of ministers. This decision is up to the Prime Minister, and we will see what the decisions will be in the coming weeks. But in addition, a reduced number of ministers ensures that ministers have more flexibility, a wider range of responsibilities. It also helps reduce costs.

When I was Clerk, there was about 100 and some departments, Crown agencies of all kinds. Today, I find it almost impossible to figure out the exact number. Using Treasury Board numbers, it tells me that there's about 250. Using other sources, including conflict of interest, directories and so on, it's closer to 300. If I exclude all judiciary appointments, there are 2,000 and more senior people working in agencies part-time or full-time. And each one of these agencies has a full suite of internal services.

It's not obvious that such a proliferation of agencies has led to better results for Canadian. Are all these organizations still needed? Could some be consolidated and produce better results? Could some be integrated with line departments and save scarce resources?

[00:40:17 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Simplify: Agency reviews; From the top down]

A possible and flexible approach would be to ask the responsible deputy ministers in a portfolio to work together with the minister to periodically review its agencies with the explicit aim of reducing their number and costs and consolidating their activities.

[00:40:38 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Simplify: Agency reviews; From the top down]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Another suggestion, and some of them will not be fashionable with everybody. Spending reviews have always focused on departments. Might [it] be worth starting at the top for a change? Coming from a public servant, the following suggestion may lack credibility with political staff and political advisors. But let's at least consider it. Remember, my point is your list of possibilities, your range of options, should be as broad as possible. There will always be time to be told, no, we're not prepared to look at this one.

There were 700 plus exempt staff in December 2024, 60% more than in 2011. And this is six times the number in the UK, a unitary state with 68 million people. The explanation for the difference between the UK and Canada is quite simple. The role of exempt staff in the UK is to do what the public service is prohibited from doing. And in Canada, the role has been expanding well beyond that definition. There are reasons to be concerned that this expansion has contributed to an erosion of ministerial authority and, in some ways, has been undermining the cabinet system of government.

So, I think there is room for reducing the number of exempt staff. And above all, there's room to refocus their role on politics. The politics of party unity; working across party lines; building house and senate support; building political alliances with the premiers and First Nations. The savings would not be huge, but the symbolic value would be significant, and the impact would be important.

[00:42:34 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Simplify: Agency reviews; From the top down; Exempt staff; Central agencies]

What about central agencies? The growth at the centre of government has been disconcerting. Between 2000 and 2024, [the] PCO budget has increased by 250%, Treasury Board by 540, and Finance by 220. Now, in the case of Treasury Board, you have to keep in mind that they received a transfer of responsibility from the Public Service Commission. But behind this growth is an unresolved issue. On the subject of the centre and the role of ministries.

So, on that one, drawing from experience in Canada and abroad, I would suggest the following. When the centre of government becomes operational, it loses its capacity to stay above the fray. When it becomes transactional, it loses its capacity to be strategic. When it loses its focus on excellence, it falls behind. Therefore, we should not underestimate the importance of sending a signal that cleaning up public finances is a collective responsibility that involves the most powerful, as well as new recruits and beginners.

In summary, you have a whole host of avenues open to you, and therefore, your search for a better way begins by expanding the space of possibility, making room, simplifying, and exploring avenues that were not explored recently by your predecessor.

[00:44:18 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Governing AND Serving as One.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: With this, you're now ready to look at, what would a review of departmental spending look like? It comes last. You don't start with it; you end with it. When it comes to modernizing government, improving services to Canadians, and reducing costs, the heavy lifting in the end will be done by departments.

Ministries are platforms for knowledge, production and innovation. It is their support for government initiatives that most often attracts attention; it is the government services that matter most to citizens and users; and it is their research that enables the government to make informed decisions.

The capacity of the Public Service of Canada to be responsive is not, and never was, in doubt. Today, when I compare to other countries, it is the service delivery capacity of departments that worries me. It is striking that in a period that saw the most rapid growth in government spending, is also the period where the public service was losing the most ground compared to its peers. It's hard on the ego of proud Canadians to think that Canada ranked sixth for e-government in 2003, and 47th today, just between Mongolia and Armenia.

The fact that Canada is not keeping with the G7 should be a concern for all of us. Canada, for instance, is the only G7 country without a unified web signing system, which is essential for citizen-centred services and for driving costs down. The government agenda and the public service reform agenda must converge and reinforce each other. A technologically and digitally advanced public sector is necessary to support a modern, technologically, and digitally advanced economy and society.

In the mid-1990s, the public service was asked to help the Government of Canada regain its fiscal sovereignty. In 2025, the public service is asked to help Canada regain its economic sovereignty and to address issues that been devolved us in the past. So, what might a review of departmental spending look like that takes into account the lessons of the past and the particular circumstances of this period? It could be focused on services to citizens, Canadians, users.

[00:47:16 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: A Service Review.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: A review center on service to citizens and users could start anytime around the management table in a conversation about, what is the most fundamental contribution of a department; a program; a service; a unit to Canada and Canadians going forward. Modernizing government and improving services does not start by focusing on cuts. It starts by focusing on what needs to be preserved.

[00:47:49 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: To Preserve.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: This means preserving the critical knowledge and the critical public assets to make decisions of critical importance for Canada. The complex issues and existential threats that we are not discussing today will not go away because the world is in the middle of a self-inflicted trade crisis. The public service must build and have access to the knowledge base to serve the public interest in yet unknown circumstances. Scientific knowledge, demographic knowledge, and knowledge of risks enable us to make informed decisions and protect the public.

Critical public assets take years to build and can be destroyed in a few days. And the US is currently providing us a powerful example of what not to do, as they are dismantling the National Oceanographic Service, or cutting half of the NASA science funding.

[00:48:52 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: To Let Go.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Knowing what to protect brings greater clarity to what can be stopped. But I would add, what can be stopped with pride. This step is of critical importance. Programs and services don't come to an end because they are somewhat deficient or wanting. They come to an end because they have fulfilled their mission and because governments have more pressing needs. So, either way, they have fulfilled their mission. The situation you're facing in 2025 offer an unprecedented opportunity to reallocate resources, make progress, and minimize disruption. That was not always the case.

The civil service will simultaneously have areas of rapid growth and areas that will be exposed to rapid decline. The growth in defence, border management, Arctic security, or trade can be used to ease the transition in areas where downsizing will be needed, or for a program that will be closed. Working as a team, reallocation can be facilitated by a number of extremely simple measures.

[A] long lead time before funding runs out for some programs would offer employees the time to explore new career opportunities. Open competition for staffing vacant positions. Open the possibility of redeploying employees without unnecessary layoffs. It is not beyond your imagination to design an approach that would make it possible to reallocate resources and build a capacity to adapt to fast changing needs and circumstances.

This would be a significant achievement and, in fact, a necessary adjustment going forward, because the pace of change is not going to slow down. There comes a time where we have to learn to break out of the boom-and-bust approach that we've used to budgeting in Canada, and in other countries, to an approach that build the adaptive capacity of government and the public sector.

[00:51:25 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: To Invent.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Serving is a process of invention, and every program would benefit, from time to time, from some serious rethinking. We can reconceptualize passport management, asylum applications, and visa granting; there is nothing to prevent us from standardizing administrative systems, whether it concerns access to information, data searches, or translation. But connecting the governing agenda and the reform agenda, high public services provide a country with comparative advantages to attract investment. And this will be particularly important in the coming years.

So, what can you do for Canada to be recognized as a country where it is easy to do business? What can be done quickly to provide frictionless services to Canadians, at a time of high anxiety and high insecurity?

[00:52:28 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Fit for the Future: Re-allocate; Re-invest; Re-invent; Technology is on Your Side.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: In 2025, technology is on your side, and that was not the case in the 1980s, or the mid-1990s. Today it is possible to accelerate a technological transition in government, in the economy, and in society. So, the solution that you're looking for, for reducing the footprint of the government in society, but doing it responsibly, is probably not a death by a thousand cuts as we did in the 1980s, and it is not through a drastic contraction on the scale of what was done in the 1990s. Your challenge is to do more in some area, less in others.

[00:53:16 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: Fit for the Future: Re-allocate; Re-invest; Re-invent; Technology is on Your Side.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Re-allocate resources and reinvest to modernize both government and society.

[00:53:23 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: A Service to Canadians Review.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Services to Canadians are the centre of gravity of a high-performing public service that is fit for the future.

So, time to wrap up.

At the scale of the world, Canada is a small miracle. It is an exceptional achievement. It is a modern, democratic, inclusive, peaceful society governed by the rule of law. It has, better than most, been able to reconcile prosperity, solidarity, and fiscal responsibility. It was, and will continue to be, a magnet for talent. It is absolutely worth fighting for.

So, the Canadian economy has underperformed in some ways. Course corrections are needed, but this can be done. Public service is lagging behind in some ways. Course corrections are needed, and this can be done. Regaining Canadian economic sovereignty will be hard. It will take time, and it will inflict a high cost on all citizens, all Canadians, there's no denying it. But as challenging as the circumstances might be, it provides an opportunity to shape an ambitious governing agenda, and a powerful reform agenda, to set Canada and the public service on a better trajectory for the future.

This chapter belongs to you, she says with envy. So, in closing, here is my two cents worth of wisdom acquired over a lifetime of public service reforms in Canada and abroad.

[00:55:25 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: The Factor YOU.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: At the end of the day, it's about you. The way you think has a direct impact on the solutions that will be found and the results that will be achieved. What can you do to make things better from where you are at this time, in the position you hold, with the authority granted to you, and the resources available to you and nothing else? What powerful ideas can you bring forward, as part of a collective effort, to put Canada and the Public Service of Canada on a better trajectory?

So, do not ask permission for what you already have the authority to do. Do not wait to be asked, and do not wait for others to go first. Go to the limit of your authority and your capacity to bring about powerful ideas.

And in a few years, sooner than you think, you will remember with pride having contributed to a collective effort to make Canada one of the countries, one of the few to have successfully navigated a period of unprecedented change.

This is hard work, but believe me, there is pride and energy in having the chance of writing a new page in the history of one's country.

[00:57:00 Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon and a slide. Text on slide: A Wise Person Once Said, "There is no window of opportunity for those who have nothing to propose." – J. Bourgon.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: So, as a wise person once said, "There are no windows of opportunity for people who have nothing to propose." Thank you all.

[00:57:13 The audience applauds. Split screen: Jocelyne Bourgon exiting the stage, and a slide showing Mme Bourgon's book, A Public Servant's Voice. Text on slide: Coming Soon]

Nathalie Laviades Jodouin: Wow. Thank you, Ms. Bourgon.

[00:57:40 Nathalie Laviades Jodouin returns to the stage. Text on screen: Nathalie Laviades Jodouin, Senior Vice President, Public Sector Operations and Inclusion Branch, Canada School of Public Service.]

We've just heard a really compelling call to action, and a reminder that in this period of uncertainty and transition, we as public servants have both the opportunity and the responsibility to really shape what comes next. And what I really like is the sense that this potential for reinvention is really real, and the work that we do now will help set the course for Canada's future.

All right. We will now move on to the panel discussion where we will continue our reflection and explore in greater depth the themes addressed in Ms. Bourgon's presentation. We're honoured to welcome a distinguished group of panelists who bring a wide range of insights and expertise to the table. Together, their contributions will greatly enrich the conversation, particularly as we delve into the challenges and opportunities surrounding public service reform. I have no doubt it's going to be a lively and thought-provoking discussion.

So, to guide us through this conversation, please join me in first welcoming our moderator. As President of the Canada School of Public Service and with a long career in public policy within the federal government, Taki Sarantakis brings a wealth of ideas and experiences to this discussion. Please join me in welcoming you to the stage.

[00:59:09 The audience applauds as Taki Sarantakis takes the stage.]

Nathalie Laviades Jodouin: We're also truly honoured to have David Dodge with us today. As a retired Deputy Minister of Finance, and former Governor of the Bank of Canada, and one of the country's most respected economic leaders, David has played a pivotal role in shaping both national and international financial policy. And with such a distinguished career, their perspectives will undoubtedly add valuable depth to the discussion. I invite you to join me in welcoming them.

[00:59:43 The audience applauds as David Dodge takes the stage.]

Nathalie Laviades Jodouin: We are also delighted to welcome Jonathan Fried to today's panel, a highly respected voice in international trade and diplomacy. Jonathan brings decades of experience from some of Canada's most senior economic and diplomatic roles, including serving as Canada's ambassador to the World Trade Organization, and the Prime Minister's representative to the G20. More recently, the Emperor of Japan awarded him the Order of the Rising Sun, a tribute to his lasting influence in international affairs, Jonathan Fried.

[01:00:20 The audience applauds as David Dodge takes the stage.]

Nathalie Laviades Jodouin: Of course, this panel would not be complete without the voice that helped to captivate today's conversation from the very beginning. I invite you to join me in welcoming back Francis Bilodeau's mother.

[01:00:40 The audience applauds as Jocelyne Bourgon takes the stage.]

[01:00:43 Split screen: The panel takes their seats; a slide that reads: Keynote Speaker, The Honourable Jocelyne Bourgon]

[01:00:49 Split screen: The panelists, and a slide with their names and photos.]

[01:00:51 Taki Sarantakis appears full screen. Text on screen: Taki Sarantakis, President, Canada School of Public Service]

Taki Sarantakis: Welcome. We're going to have a little conversation, and we're going to, a little bit, link with the past with the present, but more importantly, with the future. We're here with three distinguished guests who have contributed enormously to Canada's public policy over the last generation.

We're going to kick off with David because I think what I'm taking away from Jocelyne's talk was we are at a moment. We're at a moment both as a country, and we're at a moment as a public service. We've had different moments before, whether those were GST, whether those were NAFTA, whether those were the free trade agreement, whether it was after 9/11 in the security world, which we'll talk about a little bit.

[01:01:51 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: How do you see this moment being similar or different from some of our previous moments?

David Dodge: Well, the world is different, as Jocelyne has said. The world is different.

[01:02:03 David Dodge appears full screen. Text on screen: David A. Dodge, Former Deputy Minister of Finance and Governor of Bank of Canada.]

David Dodge: So, the constraints on what you can do from the outside are very different. We no longer are in a sweep of history, which is favourable to small open economies. We're in a sweep of history where small open economies like ours are going to struggle. So, that is different than was the case before. But what is the same, in many ways, is that the objective of government is to provide a framework that real incomes of Canadians, over time, will grow. Whether you express that as opportunity or simply GDP growth, that growth is absolutely critical to us as a country and to us as individuals.

And so, the new government, as it comes in, will have to focus on this, not to the exclusion of worrying about distribution or stability in our society, but it really now has to be the prime focus because,

[01:03:41 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

David Dodge: as Jocelyne has pointed out, we have slid quite seriously, in particular in this 21st century, and since the great financial crisis in 2008,

[01:03:49 David Dodge appears full screen.]

David Dodge: we have been on a downward path. And we all need the opportunity of growth.

So, that ends being the focus, and that means changing the focus in what you do and what you think about as to what can indeed lead us to doing things in new ways, in better ways, in more efficient ways, in essence, in raising our productivity as a contributor. And in what we do, very importantly, raising the private sector's ability to contribute and the private sector's willingness to save and invest, to promote that growth which will benefit citizens.

So that, to me, is the fundamental challenge which we face going forward. In that sense, that's not new,

but we have a world around us which is less favourable, and that will require your imagination in terms of how we deal with the old problems in new ways to raise our productivity, raise our standard of living, and raise our collective satisfaction with our country.

[01:05:28 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: Thank you. Now, Jonathan, one of the things David mentioned is that effectively the environment is different, and the environment is always different,

[01:05:37 Taki Sarantakis appears full screen.]

Taki Sarantakis: but it's particularly different to our neighbours in the South. You have spent, over the course of your career, a lot of time interfacing with the United States of America on issues like trade, on investment, on liberalization. Tell us a little bit what you see today, vis-a-vis the United States and the United States that we grew up with, at least intellectually, in this room?

[01:06:06 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Jonathan Fried: Well, one can carry on for quite a long time, which I won't.

[01:02:03 Jonathan Fried appears full screen. Text on screen: Jonathan Fried, Senior Advisor to the Albright Stonebridge Group in Washington, DC.]

Jonathan Fried: To note that the United States, throughout its history, has had an isolationist trend, a continentalist view, and a mercantilist view. Those trends have come to the fore and consolidated around President Trump and his immediate circle of friends, notwithstanding the remarkable benefits to the United States public, consumers, and business from positive engagement with the world. That's not unfamiliar to us. In fact, getting to the original free trade agreement in 1988 required Canada to be the advocate, required us to put forward the creative ideas, back to being inventive and creative, as the Clerk had highlighted.

So, to evolving into a modernized and expanded NAFTA, and what some people call NAFTA's 0. 8, the half step backwards we might have taken in agreeing to the CUSMA terms of reference, which has also served both American and Canadian interests well.

[01:07:34 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Jonathan Fried: As again, our lecturer pointed out, you're not in a position to anticipate going back to anything. The environment will be with us for quite some time, and thus one needs to navigate.

[01:07:48 Jonathan Fried appears full screen.]

Jonathan Fried: Having said that, there are not adversarial or war-like tendencies between our two countries when you take the overall relationship that outlasts any administration beyond a trade agreement. When you add up all the interconnections, be it electricity grids; to transportation; to the Great Lakes; to our cross-border rivers; to managing our respective fisheries on each coast; to the Arctic. We have common cause. We have common interests in security, of the security of North America, the security of our Atlantic and Pacific and Arctic frontiers.

[01:08:39 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Jonathan Fried: That goes back to World War II. That goes back to the Hyde Park Declaration, which led to the defence production and defence development sharing agreements.

[01:08:48 Jonathan Fried appears full screen.]

Jonathan Fried: We are part, not only of that military view of security, but also, as the Defence Production Agreements show, and as today's world reminds us, economic security is part of national security. We have the resources, the critical materials, the energy, the potash that feeds American farmers that are essential to American well-being and American ability to defend.

So, a dialogue, as the Prime Minister is suggesting, about the economy and security being intertwined is a logical framing of the issues. Now, is that one table? Is it an early agreement?

[01:09:37 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Jonathan Fried: Is it several pieces of dialogue that will need to unfold over time with the difficulties and disruptions that we'll have to face in adjusting to that? Probably the latter.

[01:09:48 Jonathan Fried appears full screen.]

Jonathan Fried: And that doesn't preclude the sovereign autonomy of taking advantage of chewing gum and walking at the same time by diversifying and exploring opportunities with our other partners around the world.

[01:10:04 Taki Sarantakis appears full screen.]

Taki Sarantakis: Absolutely. Now, speaking of other partners around the world, Madame Bourgon, in addition to being Francis' mother, most people in this room know you as the Clerk of the Privy Council.

[01:10:16 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: But you've spent a lot of time – you're actually a gem in the world of international public administration – talk to us a little bit about some of the other countries that you've looked at. How they've been navigating a little bit of this period. Maybe talk to us about a few that you particularly find, not so much as, this is what Canada should do, but the mindset that they have adopted in navigating their own challenges.

[01:10:45 Text on screen: The Honourable Jocelyne Bourgon, Founding President of Public Governance International; President Emeritus of the Canada School of Public Service; and Project Leader of the New Synthesis Initiative]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Taki, I'll get to that in a minute. But building on what my friend said, you know what bugs me? I mean, the world was positioned to have a soft landing, right? The struggle with inflation… The world was positioned to have a reasonably decent period of growth. We had, therefore, an opportunity to focus on the real stuff, issues of climate change that I mentioned; the world getting smaller; massive migration; an aging population that is undoing the economic engine in some countries; and so on, and so forth.

[01:11:23 Jocelyne Bourgon appears full screen.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: And instead of dealing with the important, we're dealing with this artificial crisis that is totally self-inflicted. It bugs me.

[01:11:35 The audience applauds. Split screen: The panelists, and a slide with their names and photos.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Okay, now...

[01:11:40 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: You feel better now?

Jocelyne Bourgon: Now I feel better, but I'm still connected to the conversation.

[01:11:47 Jocelyne Bourgon appears full screen.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: I do work with a portfolio of countries, and some of them for many, many years. You came to join me at my last trip in Singapore. I've been working with them for 30 years. I've been working with Denmark for 25, [with] Finland for 20. I've been regularly working with France or Great Britain, and so on. There are places in the world where I go to learn what not to do. I won't mention that.

But the countries I just mentioned, sometimes the reaction of Canadians is, oh, but they are so small. What can we possibly learn from them?

[01:12:27 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: That is so narrow, and this is so dangerous as a mindset, because a good idea is a good idea is a good idea, that you can pick anywhere, at any level, anytime, anyplace.

[01:12:38 Jocelyne Bourgon appears full screen.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: And the key is to capture it and reinvent it in your context.

So, there are countries that have dealt with the technological transition that I talked about 25 years ago they started. There are countries that have redesigned their social safety net to be more adapted to current circumstances. There are some that are better positioned today because of the investments they've made.

So, on that front, what do I see? I see a mix, and it's not related to size, and it's not related to geography. It is, many times, related to a group of people. I'm struck as I get older. Behind any major reform, you find half a dozen people who bring it about. And it doesn't matter where in the world that is. At the end of the day, you have institutional capacity. But a nexus of people driving a change is behind most significant reform.

So, what do I pick from the world that don't underestimate the importance of people building the institution does matter. It makes a world of difference. But then the magic is brought together by a group of people who drive an agenda. They often start with, there has to be a better way. Not that they know what is the better way, but the acknowledgement there has to be a better way. And then the conversations start. And then they are looking elsewhere. And then they are capturing ideas, and then they are reinventing. And guess what? They try. There are countries that write the most beautiful papers.

[01:14:19 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: What is the issue? What's the background? What is the academic understanding? And there are countries that have pilot project and results.

[01:14:32 Jocelyne Bourgon appears full screen.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: And Canada is not always balanced between the two. We have a tendency to write phenomenal papers, but we're not always driving the change process as fast as we could. And yet there are times where Canada – no one can beat Canada in some cases. When the alignment of political will and professional capacity comes together, it's amazing what can be achieved.

[01:14:54 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: Now, David, there's a story: You came home one day, or you came to work one day and you said,

[01:15:04 Taki Sarantakis appears full screen.]

Taki Sarantakis: I have found my successor as Governor of the Bank of Canada. The person that you found as your successor as the Governor of the Bank of Canada is today our Prime Minister.

[01:15:20 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: Now, there are some people in this room who are Deputy Minsters who will be briefing your successor at the Bank of Canada. Tell us a little bit about what you would tell your successor today.

[01:15:32 Taki Sarantakis appears full screen.]

Taki Sarantakis: I know you're on record. In March, you wrote a piece on how we're overconsuming in Canada, how we're going to have to go through some choices, some difficult choices. Talk to us a little bit about how you would frame some of those difficult choices.

[01:15:51 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

David Dodge: That's exactly right. I think Mr. Carney –

Taki Sarantakis: Prime Minister Carney.

[01:16:05 David Dodge appears full screen.]

David Dodge: Prime Minister Carney. I keep wanting to say Mark, but I can't do that anymore. I think he grasped this absolutely, that those changes have to come, that those are going to be difficult, that we have to build, and to build, we have to invest. I think in addressing him as you work through the particular issues for which you are responsible, thinking through what it is that you can bring forward that fits this drive, if you will, to invest, to raise productivity, to raise our contribution in the future.

And think through, also, what it is that you can do, in your perspective, to engage the private sector in this enterprise. Because, after all, most of the investment that's going to have to be made going forward is not going to be made by the public, we may make some, but it's going to be made by the private sector.

And so, what is it – in the rules that you're writing, in the programs that that you're administering – what is it that you can do which will actually improve the private sector's ability to make that contribution, to give it the incentive to make that contribution, and to remove disincentives that may currently be there?

In addressing the Prime Minister, I think it's really important to bear that thinking in mind as you bring forward your ideas related to the areas for which you are responsible.

[01:18:10 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: Jonathan, how would you frame advice to Prime Minister Carney in the areas which you're knowledgeable about?

Jonathan Fried: Well, I disagree with your premise. I may not be knowledgeable.

[01:18:26 Jonathan Fried appears full screen.]

Jonathan Fried: I'm a student of both the former governor and the former-

[01:18:31 Taki Sarantakis appears full screen.]

Taki Sarantakis: That's very <inaudible> of you, by the way, of disagreeing with the premise.

[01:18:35 Jonathan Fried appears full screen.]

Jonathan Fried: Look, as David said, growth is essential. We're a country of only 40 million people with the capacity and the demonstrated ability to produce for many more than that. We are very dependent on engagement internationally to have markets, but also, as motivated, our move to free trade, as the MacDonald Commission advised us in the '80s, to open ourselves to the best of the world and to increase our productivity through competition at home.

[01:19:09 Taki Sarantakis and Jonathan Fried on stage.]

Jonathan Fried: So, whether we're open to the United States only? No. Are we open to the world? Yes. As the only G7 country who has free trade with every continent, with the comprehensive agreement with the European Union, with the 22 countries or so of the – you've got to learn to say it, it's going to be common –

[01:19:30 Jonathan Fried appears full screen.]

Jonathan Fried: CPTPP in Asia, our negotiations with Indonesia and ASEAN, who matter in economic terms. Put aside the small geographic size. We need to take advantage, both inward and outward. Those are huge sources of capital as well. That puts a premium on acting at home to be the most hospitable environment for legitimate and productive investment, while caring about our economic security,

[01:20:02 Taki Sarantakis and Jonathan Fried on stage.]

Jonathan Fried: you don't want your adversaries to be owning your critical minerals. You don't want to be loose on cyber security, or on technology terms.

[01:20:14 Jonathan Fried appears full screen.]

Jonathan Fried: That's not just following the United States. That's a common Western interest in securing our economic future, as well as the more traditional intelligence and defence environment.

So, embrace that as proactively as you can. But governments, remember, create the playing field, hopefully rules-based for the world minus one, or China minus two, Russia minus three. But it's the private sector that needs to act on that. We may need to up our game and lead them by hand to get off their complacency and be more risk-taking in looking for those opportunities in other markets.

[01:21:05 Taki Sarantakis and Jonathan Fried on stage.]

Jonathan Fried: Final word on this, it's not just about trade within the confines of traditional trade agreements.

[01:21:14 Jonathan Fried appears full screen.]

Jonathan Fried: It's trade investment; it's portfolio investment; and it's the infrastructure around that as financial services and capital flows open. Do we have double taxation agreements in line with that? And so on.

So, one needs a more comprehensive economic view that doesn't just belong to the Trade Commissioners and Global Affairs. It belongs to Finance. It belongs to Transport. Do we have air links, sea links, and so on? And we care about the environment. Is it clean trade? So, it's multidisciplinary, it's federal provincial, and it's multi-stakeholder.

One last word, because it's a wonderful turn of phrase. Mike Froman, the former USTR and White House advisor who now heads the US Council on Foreign Relations, in looking at our transition from a G1 to what is a multi-polar world emerging, of however many polls you may wish to count, said, "It behooves all of us to be polyamorous". Not that we need permanent friends on multiple fronts, but our interests are permanent, and we should embrace every opportunity where it can be found.

[01:22:39 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: That's interesting. I'm going to quote a former colleague of yours, Richard Dicerni, the late Richard Dicerni, that called the public service "serial monogamists". So, between polyamorous and serial monogamists, somewhere in there is Canada.

Now, Madame Bourgon, between the public service and the political class,

[01:23:00 Taki Sarantakis appears full screen.]

Taki Sarantakis: significant things are going to have to happen for better or worse in the coming years, and probably sooner rather than later.

One of the things, though, in that environment, Edelman keeps track of trust scores over long periods of time. In particular, it looks at four institutions in Canada: the media; the government; business; and NGOs.

[01:23:31 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: And this is Canada. So obviously, the number one trusted institution of those four is?

Audience: <Inaudible>

Taki Sarantakis: Wrong. The number one most trusted institution is?

Audience: Business.

Taki Sarantakis: Business. That's surprising.

[01:23:49 Taki Sarantakis appears full screen.]

Taki Sarantakis: The least trusted of those four institutions? And again, this is Canada, it's obvious. It's government.

[01:24:00 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: We are now in a world where we, collectively and our political masters, are trusted by Canadians less than they trust the media, less than they trust business, and less than they trust NGOs. So, we have, in addition to all these other things that you articulated, we also have a trust gap, a credibility gap. How are we going to start to overcome that? How are we going to do big things if we collectively are not as trusted as we think we are?

[01:24:42 Jocelyne Bourgon appears full screen.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: I would say, yes, it is about growth, but it's about people. And growth without a form of balance, where people feel that they benefit from it, and that their hard work in contributing to a well-performing economy is rewarded, leads to the kind of polarized situation we have in the US.

And Canada – that's what I meant when I said Canada had a bit of a genius in balancing economic prosperity, solidarity, and fiscal responsibility. And this balance is never stable, [it's] forever changing, but gee, we have to keep our eye on that.

I think we need to bring some course correction to the perception of the private sector with all the respect I have for my colleagues in the private sector.

[01:25:46 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Look, the reason we are dependent to 75% of all our export to one market has something to do with the way the private sector has performed.

[01:26:00 Jocelyne Bourgon appears full screen.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: The word complacency that you use is totally appropriate in my mind. And it was not a lack of incentive by government to encourage research and development and investment in modern technology. It was not lacking, but it did not happen.

So, I think we need to speak out a bit more about what is done, who's doing it, who's doing the heavy lifting, and what do we need to do differently? Because I really think we need to do differently. The notion that you just have to cut taxes and deregulate, and everything will be fine, if only you leave it to the market, I don't think is the way forward. It was never the way to build Canada, but it's certainly not the way forward. So, I think there's some explaining there that needs to be done.

[01:26:54 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: I'm not saying government is perfect. I was the first one today here, listening [to] all the kinds of witnesses we have. So, being clear-minded is not only about our performance; it's about the performance of others. A strong partnership requires partners that speak to each other about what they see on the other side, and [the] course corrections that would be needed.

Taki Sarantakis: David, what are your thoughts on this?

David Dodge: Yeah. But government writes the rules in which the private sector performs.

[01:27:24 David Dodge appears full screen.]

David Dodge: And those rules can constrain, or they can encourage innovation. I would say that the view out there, in the private sector at the moment, is that the effort has been more on the constraint than the encouragement. I think it's really important that we turn that around, in what we do, but I would say more importantly, in how you do it. In that you have the chance in your day-to-day business life to have that interaction, that open interaction with the private sector people, and to encourage that so that there is that dialogue at the time of rule writing that you bring, to the writing of those rules, you bring an understanding of what may work, or work better, in encouraging innovation on the other side.

[01:28:47 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

David Dodge: So, I think this is a partnership. It's a partnership between the public and private sectors, and we should never forget that. Unfortunately, sometimes people in the private sector forget that, as well.

[01:29:03 David Dodge appears full screen.]

David Dodge: But I think it's important that we, on the public side, really remember that and do our best to remain open and to encourage that dialogue in our day-to-day work. And that dialogue, indeed, will contribute to trust. And so, it's up to us all to try to build that. And I think that is an important way forward.

[01:29:34 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: I think the rules have to be encouraging, but I suspect that it will also take a bit of a push.

[01:29:42 Jocelyne Bourgon appears full screen.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Governments need a push to course correct when we're falling behind, and the private sector needs a bit of a push when the level of dynamism and energy is not what is needed for the time. So, maybe an openness to doing that <inaudible> encourage, combined with a frank exchange both ways and a bit of a push for each other would build a stronger partnership.

[01:30:10 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

David Dodge: Mr. Carney, will you give someone that point?

Taki Sarantakis: Prime Minister Carney!

Jocelyne Bourgon: The one thing we did not talk about, and should be on everybody's radar screen, is unity.

[01:30:23 Jocelyne Bourgon appears full screen.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: The one thing that could derail many of the initiatives is the fragility – if fragility emerges on that front. So, my advice to everybody in the public service is, don't lose sight of national unity. It is a condition for progress on many of the aspects we talked about.

[01:30:44 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: Now, sadly, we have to wrap up because we're not only at time, we're over time.

[01:30:51 Taki Sarantakis appears full screen.]

Taki Sarantakis: But, Madame Bourgon, not just today, but in the DM Reflections video you were kind enough to do at the School, you enumerated a bunch of problems, and then you ended with, "And I envy the fact that you're here to deal with them, and I'm sad that I'm not here to help deal in this environment."

[01:31:10 Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Taki Sarantakis: Talk to us a little bit about why you envy the people in this room, and why you envy some of the people online who have heard you speak today.

Jocelyne Bourgon: I don't envy - I'm here.

[01:31:24 Jocelyne Bourgon appears full screen.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: Anybody who wants, I'm available and accessible and always willing to share ideas, and so on. I don't feel separate from your journey. I am a deep believer in the importance of the role of the state. I've done enough work in enough places to know that you don't have a well-performing country without a well-performing government and well-performing public institutions. This is not taking anything away from the importance of private organization or civil society.

[01:31:59Taki Sarantakis, Jonathan Fried, Jocelyne Bourgon, and David Dodge on stage.]

Jocelyne Bourgon: But countries that don't have that, have tremendous difficulty in dealing with problems and making progress. So, I'm on that side. Count me as a believer the importance of the role of the state. But it's in intense periods of change that it's most exciting. If you believe it's possible to build a better future; if you believe it's possible to solve problems; if you believe it's possible to invent solutions – I use the sentence, when things are getting unstuck, this is the ideal space for innovation. Someone somewhere is in the process of inventing something of great significance. It could be us, and it is us.

That's what I mean when I say, I will never be far from the public sector. I'll never be far from the role of the state. I'll never be far from public administration and the people who care about leading major reform.

Taki Sarantakis: Absolutely. On behalf of the people in this room and the people on-line, I would like to thank all three of you for this wonderful discussion, but in particular, for your 2025 lecture on what we need to do in 2025, serving in 2025 and beyond. Please join me in thanking our panelists. Thank you very much.

[01:33:35 The audience applauds. Split screen: The panelists, Nathalie Laviades Jodouin, and a slide with their names and photos.]

[01:33:48 Nathalie Laviades Jodouin appears full screen.]

Nathalie Laviades Jodouin: I would like to echo Taki's thanks again on behalf of myself and those of us joining today for our esteemed panelists, our Honourable Speaker, and I want to thank the audience today for making the time to be here. We are truly grateful that you took the time to be with us this afternoon and hope that this discussion continues beyond this event. Well, thank you again to everyone and I wish you a very nice end of the day. Thank you.

[01:34:18 The audience applauds. Split screen: The panelists, Nathalie Laviades Jodouin, and a slide. Text on slide: The MANION Lecture, Serving Canada in 2025.]

[01:34:25 The CSPS logo appears onscreen.]

[01:34:32 The Government of Canada logo appears onscreen.]