Transcript
Transcript: Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections Series: Susan Cartwright
[00:00:03 The Deputy Minister/President's Office is shown.]
[00:00:11 Text appears onscreen that reads "Deputy Minister Leadership Reflections with Susan Cartwright".]
[00:00:14 Susan Cartwright sits down in a chair.]
[00:00:21 Text appears onscreen that reads "Susan Cartwright retired from the federal public service in 2012 after 31 years, most recently as Senior Advisor to the Privy Council Office, leading the legislative review of the Public Service Modernization Act. Her career included key roles as Foreign and Defence Policy Advisor to the Prime Minister, Deputy Secretary to Cabinet, Associate Deputy Minister at Health Canada, as well as leading, in partnership with Joe Wild, the development of the Federal Accountability Act at Treasury Board."]
[00:00:44 Text appears onscreen that reads "Where were you born?"]
Susan Cartwright: I was born in a little tiny hospital in France.
[00:00:54 Text appears onscreen that reads "What part of France?"]
In the northeast. My father was working for NATO and forces establishing microwave repeater stations across Europe, and my parents moved to France with my two brothers and they elected to live in a little village rather than on the military base so that my brothers could go to a French school and they could experience village life, and I was… I think it's okay to say this, both my parents would have agreed, I was a mistake. I was definitely an unplanned arrival.
[00:01:43 Text appears onscreen that reads "When did you come to Ottawa?"]
Well, the family was due to leave and so I was, I don't know, three or four months old when we made the journey back to Ottawa.
[00:01:56 Text appears onscreen that reads "Is Ottawa where you grew up?"]
Partly. We left Ottawa when I was six and emigrated to New Zealand. So, that's where I did most of my schooling. And then, we came back for me to go to university in Canada.
[00:02:19 Text appears onscreen that reads "Where did you go to university?"]
My parents and I were looking for a place to settle in Canada, and it's a long story which you don't want to hear all of, I'm quite sure, but we had spent three years getting back to Canada. So, we had been living in a motor home together for three years and I was very impatient to find somewhere, anywhere, it didn't really matter to me, so that we could get out of this motor home together, and my parents were, I guess, a bit more choosy about where we stopped, and we got to Victoria and we'd sort of run out of Canada. So, we stayed there and I went to UVic to do my undergraduate degree.
[00:03:08 A photo from the University of Victoria is shown.]
[00:03:11 Text appears onscreen that reads "What made you shift from academia to public service?"]
I did an honours undergraduate degree and my supervisor was very keen that I should continue in academia. I was not so keen, but in an effort to, I guess, persuade me, he organized a friend of his colleague to take me as a master's student at the University of Waterloo.
[00:03:42 A photo from the University of Waterloo is shown above text that reads "Ms. Cartwright holds a bachelor's degree from the University of Victoria and a master's degree from the University of Waterloo".]
So, I arrived in January, and yes, I hadn't experienced snow since I was a six-year-old and it was all a bit of a shock to me.
[00:03:58 A photo of a snow-covered area is shown.]
And Waterloo was so much bigger in terms of the campus. And really, at the time, I wouldn't say dominated by, but the presence of the engineering and mathematics and computer science programs was really strong, but I had a very happy year in Waterloo.
[00:04:21 A photo of Susan Cartwright holding her Honorary Doctorate next to Dominic Barton is shown above text that reads "Susan Cartwright received an Honorary Doctorate from Dominic Barton at the University of Waterloo in 2019".]
But it made me realize that I was kind of impatient to get out and get on with life and that doing a doctorate just wasn't for me, and I had a friend who we played squash with together and he dared me to write the Foreign Service exam. He tried it once before and hadn't been successful, and I probably said something silly like, I could do that, just to annoy him. And then, I wrote the exam and was called for an interview, and before I knew it, I was on my way to… well, I went to Toronto first to work in the Regional Office of Industry, Trade, and Commerce.
[00:05:12 Text appears onscreen that reads "Having been posted abroad and served as an ambassador, what was it like to represent Canada while living in different countries?"]
Well, it's a real privilege in many respects to get to represent your country and to also have the experience of living and working in other countries and being able to immerse yourself to the extent that's not really possible as a tourist or a visitor.
[00:05:34 Text appears onscreen that reads "Ms. Cartwright had a 21-year career in the Foreign Service, during which she served in five overseas postings and held various positions in Ottawa at Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada".]
So, to be able to live somewhere for two or three or four years, maybe learn the language, it's quite a different experience and it's a very rich experience. So, I was very much a generalist in that I didn't specialize in a region. So, I had two assignments in Africa, one in Australia, one in India, and then finally in Hungary as Ambassador. So, it was a marvelous career, a marvelous experience for which I'm extremely grateful.
[00:06:25 Text appears onscreen that reads "How did you become an associate deputy minister?"]
At the time, the government had swung between centrally-managed and decentralized management of the ADM community. And while I was at foreign affairs, as it was then, the switch went back to a centrally-managed pool, and I felt very strongly because all the time I'd been at Foreign Affairs, which up to that point was 21 years, I had felt very much a part of the Foreign Service but not so much part of a public service, and I realized that my network, which was excellent within the international network of… or the international pool of employees in the public service, but beyond that, it really was non-existent, partly by virtue of being abroad, being outside Canada, but also not having the same opportunities for interaction. So, I was quite keen on the idea of a centralized pool where I could actually potentially go and work in other departments and then return to Foreign Affairs. After gaining some useful knowledge about what I call domestic departments… no department is really domestic anymore but those who aren't Foreign Affairs or CIDA at the time or Immigration. And so, I went through the selection process, which was quite a formidable set of interviews, and went into the pool, and I was pretty confident that… or I guess I was realistic in terms of my expectations about getting a call. But in fact, I did get a call within about a week from Wayne Wouters, who was then the Deputy Minister at Fisheries and Oceans, asking if I would like to come and be interviewed for the ADM policy position.
[00:08:46 Text appears onscreen that reads "From 2002 to 2003, she held the position of Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, at Fisheries and Oceans Canada".]
And of course, the relationship between Foreign Affairs and DFO at the time was… how can I put it? A little tense because of the problems we were having with overfishing by European fleets off the east coast. And so, off I went for the interview and I was successful and decided to go. It was… the going was a lot easier than the going back and which I regret very much, but I don't regret the experience that I was able to gain in other departments.
[00:09:38 Text appears onscreen that reads "What was your initial role at the Treasury Board Secretariat?"]
[00:09:49 Text appears onscreen that reads "From 2003 to 2006, Ms. Cartwright held several roles at the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, where she also led the development of the Federal Accountability Act".]
Originally, I was the Assistant Secretary of Government Operations and International Assistance… sorry, International Security and Defence. So, I had two in-effect sectors, but it took a little while to organize the division of the two. So, I had these two very disparate sectors in what… which were what the TBS called program sectors, and it was a revelation to me, I must say, Treasury Board Secretariat. It was such a great opportunity to learn how government works and how it funds itself, about which I was woefully ignorant, I think.
[00:10:49 Text appears onscreen that reads "What led you to work on the Federal Accountability Act?"]
Well, I can still remember the day. It was a Wednesday when Wayne called me up to his office and said he would like me to do this. And so, I had to find somebody to replace me, and Bill Austen kindly stepped up to replace me. And then, I had to get a copy of the Conservative platform and actually read what this first priority entailed. And in fairness, (inaudible) who at the time was our legal advisor, she had been suggesting for several weeks that we actually give some thought to how we might achieve this. And so, (inaudible) was my first stop, never having written an MC in my life, never having worked on a piece of legislation in my life. Maybe it was an advantage in that I just didn't know what was the norm and what I was taking on, because I'm not sure in hindsight I would have volunteered for the job. So, we had very limited time, and it was not only taken up with beginning to develop a process but it was also about finding space and recruiting a team and all those practical things. So, yes, it was a very exciting time.
[00:12:35 Text appears onscreen that reads "What were your marching orders for the Federal Accountability Act?"]
So, my marching orders were to get a piece of legislation through the House as quickly as possible, and it was legislation that was designed, I think, to show the government's resolve to respond to the Gomery Commission but also some real, some perceived weaknesses in management practices in the public service, and to increase transparency. So, there were changes to the Access to Information Act, for example. So, it was fairly wide-ranging in the breadth of issues that it covered and we very much approached it in sections, and I realized very quickly that the only way we could do this quickly was by not creating a team to replicate the work of policy specialists in a whole range of departments and agencies but to harness their knowledge and energy with a small team that would essentially be a process driver and an organizer and a convener.
[00:14:08 Text appears onscreen that reads "How well did the Federal Accountability Act meet its intended purpose?"]
I think the Accountability Act was at the time and perhaps still is misunderstood. It was not a punishment for public servants and it was… so, for example, the Lobbyists Registration Act which came in as a result, that had nothing to do with the accountability of public servants, and I think there were actually many elements of the Federal Accountability Act which were useful and timely.
[00:14:49 A photo of John Baird, Susan Cartwright, and Wayne Wouters holding the Federal Accountability Act is shown above text that reads "John Baird (President of the Treasury Board), Susan Cartwright, and Wayne Wouters (Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet) holding the Federal Accountability Act after it was passed in 2006".]
20 years hence, they should probably be looked at again. But I think at the time, they were fit for purpose.
[00:15:05 Another photo of Susan Cartwright holding the Federal Accountability Act was shown.]
I think in the process of it going through the House and then the Senate, there was a certain… which is inevitable, it is all part of the democratic process, there was a politicization, and I regretted, for example, at the end, when it was billed in communications material as the toughest anti-corruption legislation Canada had ever seen. That wasn't what the Accountability Act was about, at least not the one I drafted, and it was much more important than that. In a sense, it was much more fundamental than that. So, I regret some of the communications and the lack of understanding about what was in the act and the fact that I don't think anybody saw it as punitive. That wasn't the purpose.
[00:16:05 Text appears onscreen that reads "How did you view the shift in public servants' interactions with external sectors since the Federal Accountability Act?"]
Well, it's an interesting notion. I think there were a lot of things contributing to fear or a reluctance to be accountable. For the first time, really, as a result of the rise of social media and the fundamental changes in communications, public servants became much more identifiable. There was also, I would say… I don't want to use the term "weakening" because that implies a judgment on my part, but there was a change in the relationship between ministers and senior public servants, and the tradition of sort of ministerial accountability, that was beginning to be eroded, I would say. The media was different in its approach to public servants and the public service in general. So, I think there were a lot of things contributing at about the same time.
[00:17:26 Text appears onscreen that reads "How do you view the role of the Public Service Commission and its impact on the public service?"]
So, my last assignment in the public service before I retired was a review of the HR legislation, so the Public Service Employment Act and the Public Service Labour Relations Act.
[00:17:43 Text appears onscreen that reads "As Senior Advisor to the Privy Council Office from 2009 to 2012, she led the legislative review of the Public Service Modernization Act, resulting in a report tabled in Parliament in 2011".]
I was… I can't say I was thrilled that that was my job. It was not something I would have chosen for myself, but consistent with my experience throughout my career, I should suspend judgment because it turned out to be one of the most interesting assignments I had ever had. So, I spent two years doing a legislative review of the legislation and I would say that my conclusions were not universally popular, and with respect to the Public Service Commission, which lies at the heart of our non-partisan public service because the Public Service Commission was created to remove the appointment authority from politicians and centralize it in an apolitical structure which reports to Parliament and not to a minister, and I was very critical in my review of the Public Service Commission, not the institution itself or necessarily any of the individuals leading it but of the way in which it was executing its mandate and the effect it was having. You spoke of a chill, so the effect it was having on managers and employees in the public service. And when the clerk asked me if I would like to work at the Public Service Commission so I could address the shortcomings I'd identified, I thought it was a bit churlish to say, well, actually, no, I'm not that interested, but what I didn't want to do… I was really not 100% healthy. And so, the President's job was not really feasible for me. And so, I said, but I'd be happy to serve as one of the part-time commissioners.
[00:20:10 Text appears onscreen that reads "What is the role of the commissioners within the Public Service Commission?"]
So, the commission sits as a commission, and you don't want three people running an… there are three commissioners, I should say, and you don't really want three people running an organization. So, one of the commissioners is full-time now. It began as a three-person commission doing everything together, but it's not really practical or tenable. So, one of the commissioners is full-time and is the deputy head effectively, so runs the organization, and the other two are part-time commissioners, and the Public Service Commission takes all of its decisions as a commission for which the commission is finally accountable and the decisions are reviewable in federal court.
[00:21:14 Text appears onscreen that reads "What are some other key responsibilities within the Public Service Commission?"]
The commission appoints all public servants. We delegate that authority to deputy heads and then we conduct… I shouldn't use the present tense anymore, but the commission then audits and investigates the use of that authority.
[00:21:47 Text appears onscreen that reads "What does leadership mean to you?"]
Leadership, to me, means setting an example, I think in sort of current parlance, walking the talk. You can say lots of things, and things that are important and things that are good, but unless you are actually living and demonstrating those same things, you're not, in my opinion, demonstrating leadership. It means doing difficult things. It means taking difficult decisions at times. Leadership is not easy and it's not always fun but it is hugely rewarding to have the opportunity to lead and find that people are interested in or are willing to follow you.
[00:22:51 Text appears onscreen that reads "Have you ever worked with difficult leaders?"]
Yes, I did (laughs). I would say… and what I have tried in those instances is to figure out what it is that's bad and make a promise to myself not to do the same thing. So, to the extent I could, I tried to turn those, often unpleasant, working relationships into something useful for me for the future.
[00:23:32 Text appears onscreen that reads "What qualities make a good public servant, and have those qualities evolved over time?"]
I suspect it has changed over the years. Canada has changed. The private sector has changed. So, I'd be worried, actually, if the public service also hadn't changed.
[00:23:58 A photo of Susan Cartwright standing with another woman is shown above text that reads "She was named a Member of the Order of Canada in 2016".]
A good public servant is someone who is… has an awareness of the public interest.
[00:24:06 A photo of Susan Cartwright standing with Stephen Harper and David Johnston while holding the Public Service Achievement Award is shown above text that reads "In January 2013, she received the Public Service Outstanding Achievement Award from the Prime Minister in the presence of Canada's Governor General".]
It's not necessarily a career for passionate advocates, which for whom there is a great place in society, I'm just not sure it's in the public service. We need people who are aware of the public interest and their ability to serve it and to do what is right for the public at large. Also, I think a good public servant is interested in facts and in information and in the experience of others, so some sort of curiosity about their field of endeavour, and it's also about making the relationship between the non-partisan public service and the political world work. The politicians who are elected by Canadians have been elected to govern, to make decisions, and they play a very different role from public servants, and the two… without each other, the Westminster system doesn't work.
[00:25:27 Text appears onscreen that reads "Can you tell us the difference between the federal public service you joined and the one you left?"]
It was a lot bigger, for starters, and big organizations present their own set of challenges in terms of management and leadership. I would say that public servants perhaps had less confidence in both their place in society… there was a certain reverence for public servants. I think that has gone. There is an appreciation on the part of many Canadians for the public service but there is no… there isn't the same sort of reverence that's given without necessarily an experience to back it up. So, I regret that very much and I particularly regret it in the area of people management where the review that I did showed me clearly that we had legislation that was enormously permissive and yet we were… we, managers in the public service, were not using that legislation as we could have and should have.
[00:27:02 Text appears onscreen that reads "What advice would you give to a junior public servant just starting out their career?"]
Probably two or three things. The first is that it offers a remarkable experience, a remarkable life experience, and the variety of jobs which can be accessed within the public service is unparalleled. I don't think there's another organization in the country that offers that breadth of experience. The second thing is… and I know it's extremely difficult with the speed at which things move, but it is really important to make sure that recommendations and advice that we give has a solid foundation. It takes time, and time is sort of one thing that nobody has, but that's a challenge we have to confront, and the other thing I think that's really important is the fearless advice. So, I prefer that to truth to power because it implies there is only one truth and that nobody else has the power and… anyway, for all sorts of reasons, I prefer the fearless advice and the loyal implementation. And when I worked for Prime Minister Harper, we agreed on almost nothing but he read everything I wrote. I always had a chance to make my case, and that is all I could ask for, and it's so important to understand the place of a public servant. I think you have a happier and more successful career if you understand how the pieces work together. And so, are there things that were done during my tenure that I would have preferred had not been done? Absolutely, but all I was employed to do was to provide advice and guidance. And in fact, Mr. Harper very kindly said at one point that perhaps that was my greatest asset, was the fact that I would say things that nobody else around him would say. And so, that fearless advice is really, really important.
[00:29:52 The CSPS logo appears onscreen.]
[00:29:59 The Government of Canada logo appears onscreen.]
