Transcript
Transcript: Reflections by Gina Wilson
[00:00:00 Montage of a series of images. Text on screen: Leadership; Policy; Governance; Innovation.]
Narrator: Public servants, thought leaders, and experts from across Canada are reflecting on the ideas shaping public service – leadership, policy, governance, innovation, and beyond.
[00:00:16 Text on screen: Review and Reflection; Produced by the Canada School of Public Service.]
Narrator: This is the Review and Reflection Series produced by the Canada School of Public Service.
[00:00:26 The screen fades to Gina Wilson.]
Cara Vandale: Today, we have someone who, over the course of a remarkable career, has sat at the very centre of some of the most consequential decisions this country has made, and who brings a perspective to those rooms that is entirely her own. Welcome, Gina Wilson.
Gina Wilson (Former Deputy Minister of Indigenous Services Canada): Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Cara Vandale: We're thrilled that you're here, and we'd love to start off with hearing a little bit more about you and your background. So, I'm wondering if you could tell us where you were born and maybe a little bit about where you grew up.
Gina Wilson: Certainly. So, I am Algonquin. So, I'm from Algonquin Territory, which we're also on today.
[00:01:10 A sign for Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg is shown with the text "© P199, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons".]
Gina Wilson: And I come from Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg which is about 90 miles, 90 kilometres north of here, and I grew up there. I was born in Maniwaki which is the town just adjacent to Kitigan Zibi, beautiful, beautiful surroundings.
[00:01:26 An image of a lake and an image of a forest in Maniwaki are shown with the text "© Fralambert, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons".]
Gina Wilson: We have lakes and forests, and a wonderful place to grow up in, and also sometimes not a wonderful place to grow up in but we can get to that. Kitigan Zibi is a community of about 1,500 people on reserve, and we have school, we have administration, we have policing.
[00:01:53 An image of the Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg Community Services building is shown with the text "© P199, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons".]
Gina Wilson: We have many services, and we are also a community that is developing and moving forward. So, that is where I grew up and where I continue to call home.
Cara Vandale: And what did your parents do?
Gina Wilson: So, when I spoke about having somewhat of a tough place to live at times, my mother was quite young when she had me, 16 years old, if you can imagine, and my father was a bit older. He had been in the army. He'd moved back to the reserve, and they got together and I was born there. My little brother was also born in Maniwaki and that's where we grew up together. My parents divorced quite early in my life and things got a little tougher after that.
Cara Vandale: I know that you've credited your two grandmothers as the defining influences in your life. Are you able to tell us about them?
Gina Wilson: Absolutely, and I actually credit them quite a bit to my own development and upbringing. They were two very strong, resilient women who played a big role in my upbringing. So, my mother might have been young but I did have two grandmothers who were quite present for her and I growing up. And so, they definitely had a very strong influence on me as people who were quite powerful, strong community leaders, but also very kind and very resilient.
Cara Vandale: Wonderful. Is there anything else that you'd like to share about the community? You spoke about some tough times, how it's a wonderful place but it also has its challenges.
Gina Wilson: Yeah, a wonderful place to grow up in with extended family all around you. When I talk about tough times, I do know, like many of us know in many First Nation communities, there's a lot of struggles. So, it was hard growing up because we grew up in poverty, and I don't say that in a way where we weren't rich with a lot of things because we were rich in our surroundings, we were rich in family, rich in the medicines that grew around us, but we did have our struggles in terms of a lot of addictions. So, I grew up seeing a lot of alcohol dependency, a lot of violence. And so, those are the parts of reserve life and community life that are more of a struggle and tough, I would say.
Cara Vandale: And then, at some point, you left the community to go to the University of Ottawa. What was the path like to leave your community, to decide to go to university? I'd be curious about what you were studying or what or who was shaping your thinking back then as well.
Gina Wilson: So, I did pretty good in school. So, I actually left high school when I was 15 and moved down to Ottawa.
[00:05:20 An image of Algonquin College is shown.]
Gina Wilson: And I went to Algonquin College for a couple of years, did okay, went to the University of Ottawa, did okay.
[00:05:24 An image of the University of Ottawa is shown.]
Gina Wilson: The reason for leaving was really about wanting to escape. I talked a little bit about those challenges early on, and so wanting to leave the community was actually something that I was aspiring towards throughout high school. Leaving my home, quite frankly, was something that I really wanted to do. Interestingly enough, after five years of post-secondary education and the opening of the mind that a university can have, I wanted to go home. And so, I wanted to go back and serve, like many Indigenous students. They want to help their own people and that's exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to go home after, yeah.
Cara Vandale: Okay, and I believe it was tied to what you were studying as well.
Gina Wilson: Yeah. So, I have a degree in social sciences. I wasn't too sure what I wanted to do with that. I felt that I wanted to be engaged or involved in the overrepresentation of Indigenous peoples in the justice system. I was starting to recognize that even from my own upbringing, that there were issues that I wanted to work on. Addictions was one issue. Violence was another issue. Even the fear of social workers that we had growing up was something that I wanted to work on. So, I feel like all of those experiences that I had as a child, as a young person, as a high school student was something wanted to come back to and address. And so, social sciences was a good way to get to that. I thought I was actually going to be a lawyer at the time. Before going to law school, I took social sciences with a concentration in criminology, thinking, okay, well, that sounds like a good stepping stone to law school, but the criminology program at the University of Ottawa was just really fascinating and I had to contemplate whether I wanted to keep going to school or finish that degree, which I did, and I was anxious to get out into the workforce. So, I never did become a lawyer but I've had a great career nonetheless.
Cara Vandale: Wonderful. And as someone who was coming back to her community as a social worker, what was the reception? Was it a positive reception? Were you one of the few Kitigan Zibi members who came back as a social worker? You mentioned wanting to change how people perceive social workers in your community.
Gina Wilson: So, I would say that my community was one that believed in, and continues to do, believes in our own capacity as a people. So, we did not have a significant number of university graduates at the time. So, certainly, when I went home, I was offered a job and that was to work on a family violence survey and then ultimately to develop and establish a crisis shelter, a women's crisis shelter, that continues today, Waseya House, and I continued to work in other areas of health and social services, helped to establish an addictions treatment centre which continues today called the Wanaki Treatment Centre, and really did a lot of community and development work for about five years, received well, for sure, because I come from there, I know the people. And going back to the upbringing, it was kind of healing for me to work on those issues after having experienced them, having the lived experience of those particular traumas and then working with others on those traumas as well. So, I feel it was a bit of a closing of the circle for me and a great start to a public service career, that being First Nation public service.
Cara Vandale: So, speaking of that, you did end up joining the Assembly of First Nations and working there. What prompted that shift?
Gina Wilson: Well, it was a time to move on to something else. Again, having been in the area of Ottawa, my husband was coming back to Ottawa at the time and we wanted to move back to the city. So, I applied at the Assembly of First Nations and I got a job as a child welfare advisor, again in the child and family services area. I became then the Director of Health and Social Services there, and ultimately the CEO of AFN which was a combined role of CEO and Chief of Staff to then National Chief Ovide Mercredi who was the leader at the time.
[00:10:37 An image of Ovide Mercredi is shown with the text "© Themightyquill, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons".]
Gina Wilson: And I spent about five years working at the AFN and learning a lot about national strategy, interfacing with government more regularly, but also being able to have the opportunity to travel to probably every part of this country and to First Nation communities from coast to coast to coast. So, it was a fabulous learning experience and I credit that to continued First Nation public service, one that I'm very grateful for.
Cara Vandale: And then, at a certain point while you were at the Assembly of First Nations, there was an opportunity to join the federal public service. How did you make that decision and did it feel like a compromise?
Gina Wilson: Yeah, you've hit it bang on there. So, I looked around at the time as to what I was going to be doing next, and I wanted to stay in Ottawa by this point. I'd had two children, two young children, wasn't quite prepared to move anywhere else, and I looked around and I said, well, what is available here in Ottawa? Well, the biggest employer is here, which is the federal government. And at the time, I had just completed a whole stint at the AFN of actually organizing anti-government protests and being very vocal about the failures of the federal government when it came to Indigenous peoples. I was an advocate and continue to be but I was a more public advocate at the time. And so, it was kind of an interesting choice because I had a mentor who really wanted me to join the public service. She felt that I could make a difference, that I could do something different from the inside. And so, I decided, well, why not give it a shot? I'll see how it goes, and if I like it, I like it, and if I don't, well, then I can always do something else, but I went in to the federal public service with a bit of an idealistic view of the world and how it can change. I don't think I've ever let go of that idealistic view but I've learned to make change a little more incrementally and pragmatically.
Cara Vandale: So, let's go to what many people would describe as the defining moment of your career. You were the ADM responsible for overseeing the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement and you were a key federal partner in the Prime Minister's apology to survivors in 2010. Walk us through that.
[00:13:34 The statement of apology to former students of Indian Residential Schools from the Prime Minister of Canada is shown.]
Gina Wilson: So, that was, I would say, a highlight of my career. The residential school system having impacted so many people that I knew, understanding the story of the residential school system throughout my life, and being able to come to a point to work directly with survivors and be able to implement a very significant settlement agreement called the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement was extremely gratifying, very, very difficult, I would say, from an emotional perspective because it's work that has that sense of vicarious trauma that you carry into it so you need to recognize that as part of the work, but truly gratifying to be able to have been involved in what was a very significant turning point, I would say, in the relationship between Indigenous peoples and the federal government through that apology, and I just feel very privileged and blessed to have been a part of that, to have been able to contribute to that work but that particular day to provide some comfort, some reassurance, some degree of healing for survivors of residential schools. So, I still say it was a highlight, continue to do so. When I think back now to reconciliation, which we can talk about, but I really feel that that was a turning point where we started to actually talk more about reconciliation as a concept, as a journey, and so on. So, thanks for asking about that. That was a great memory.
Cara Vandale: And is there anything about the day that you want to share? Are there any significant behind-the-scenes moments that people wouldn't have seen?
Gina Wilson: My colleagues would tell hundreds of stories of things that would have happened that day on Parliament Hill. It was a very hectic day for those of us who were public servants working behind the scenes, trying to make sure that everything went absolutely perfectly as can be. No doubt it did not go as perfectly behind the scenes as can be. And I think for many of us, the team worked, I would say, morning till night and for about six weeks straight prior to the apology. So, we were working a bit on adrenaline but definitely exhausted as well. I would say we recognized the significance of what we were doing so we were very much up to the task. And sometimes in public service, that is how it works. You have these ebbs and flows where sometimes you work extremely hard and then you need to take a bit of a breath, and certainly did take a breath after that day. We had funny stories of flags going missing, of people getting lost, of, like I said, a lot of stories, a lot of good things happening, a lot of very emotional things happening as well but one day that is forever in my mind as a real turning point and as a great day.
Cara Vandale: I'm curious about another day that is likely very memorable for you because you're the first Indigenous woman to become a deputy minister in the federal public service.
[00:17:30 A 2017 federal government press release is shown titled "The Prime Minister announces changes in the senior ranks of the Public Services" and with highlighted text that reads: "Gina Wilson, currently Associate Deputy Minister of Public Safety, becomes Deputy Minister Status of Women, effective May 23, 2017."]
Cara Vandale: And I'm curious about what that moment felt like, and what do you think it meant for the people watching?
Gina Wilson: Well, for me, it was interesting because it kind of came by surprise, and people talk about being called into being a deputy minister. So, I suddenly got a message at my office and someone said that the clerk called, said his name was Wayne Wouters, and my administrative assistant at the time said, I told him you were busy today but maybe another time, and I went, "What? Get his office back on the phone please and let's see what he wants." And so, I went to his office and certainly he explained to me that he was promoting me to ESDC and I would be joining the deputy minister ranks, and it's quite thrilling and it's quite an honour to be asked to do that. And so, at the time, he said to me, do you understand though that you are going to be a role model? And I didn't understand that, and I kind of said, yeah, yeah, okay, I guess so. I didn't quite take on the breadth of what he understood that decision to be. I came to understand it in time, certainly not overnight but came to understand it in time, just what that meant not to me but to others in the public service, and by that, I mean Indigenous employees but also racialized employees and other employees who were from equity groups. When I started to hear from them, I understood the task that was mine.
Cara Vandale: And did that feel like a heavy toll? Was that a heavy weight to carry, being the role model?
Gina Wilson: Maybe, at times. I mean, I embraced it. I always, from day one in the federal government when joining, I did come to see that there were not a lot of Indigenous employees around. I came to understand and that was a challenge at the time, that the system wasn't created for Indigenous realities or Indigenous peoples. And so, I felt a bit alone at times, I would say, and really wanted to create or establish support systems for Indigenous employees through networks and through recruitment and retention and development and talent and so on. So, I think I've been advocating for that from day one, and being able to be in a position now to actually influence that was a responsibility I actually embraced. I took it on as one that was a priority for me in my career. Is it challenging? I guess for some of us, it can be challenging at times because you are the one that is the teacher. You're the one that is sharing what our lived experiences are. I think at times, you're the one that's up against systemic discrimination as well. However, I didn't actually spend a lot of time focused on the naysayers or those. I focused on people who were willing to make change. I focused on allies. I focused on people who were there to support the cause that I was promoting, and I think that's a more successful approach and asset-based approach than not.
Cara Vandale: I'd love to hear a bit more about the genesis of the Many Voices, One Mind report.
[00:21:46 A report excerpt is shown with text that reads:
"Many Voices, One Mind: a Pathway to Reconciliation"
"Welcome, Respect, Support and Act to Fully Include Indigenous Peoples in the Federal Public Service"
"Final Report of the Interdepartmental Circles on Indigenous Representation"
"December 4, 2017".]
Gina Wilson: Yeah. So, interestingly enough, my former deputy, Michael Wernick, who was deputy clerk at the time, asked me if I was interested in taking on the champion role, the DM champion role of Indigenous employees. He'd see me, I guess, work on different initiatives while I worked for him. He said, would you be interested? And I said, well, what does a DM champion do? And he said, well, you need to know the issues at hand, you need to advocate for those employees and represent them in different spaces. And I said, well, I do that already, I might as well take the title that goes with it. And so, when I became the champion, there was a recipe for how to do this. I didn't care for the recipe and I wanted to do something different. So, I established, again, a willing group of deputies and ADMs who wanted to work with me on this and set up a committee and a working group, and we started to get to work and I had some wonderful help from some amazing public servants, I'd say Nadine, Pat, as a couple, just people who rolled up their sleeves and really got to writing and working with the committee. We did a survey. It was the most comprehensive survey of Indigenous peoples ever in the public service with those employees who had retired, those who were young, and the response was really, really exceptional. And when the report was actually launched and we started to consult on it, we received just an overwhelming reception from Indigenous employees and networks who said this is it, this is the blueprint, this is what we've been waiting for, and I was quite heartened at that reaction, that response. We did ceremony and with an elder who talked about many voices, one mind was what she felt, that was Lee at the time, and she felt that this was what this work was about. And so, we branded it Many Voices, One Mind.
Cara Vandale: Wonderful, and it's been such a significant report. One thing I did want to ask you about though is that the report did reveal something somewhat troubling with regards to retention of Indigenous employees.
[00:24:20 A report excerpt is shown with highlighted text that reads: "3. Research on Best Practices in Recruitment and Retention of Indigenous Peoples".]
Cara Vandale: There are many recruitment strategies, but many Indigenous employees are leaving and are still leaving the public service. Why is this still happening, in your opinion?
Gina Wilson: Well, in public service, often you don't get to see the immediate fruits of your labours. Sometimes, public service, you're in for the long game, and I would say definitely we've made some gains when it's come to recruitment. There are some departments that do really well bringing people in, and you're absolutely right. It's keeping people interested, engaged, and doing meaningful work. I also said that the system, the enterprise, is not structured or it's not created to necessarily support Indigenous realities and lived experiences. So, what do we do? There have been programs, I would say, that are doing quite exceptionally well to create those systems that support Indigenous realities. I refer, for example, to the IT Indigenous Apprenticeship Program that has some supports there.
[00:25:38 The Government of Canada webpage for the IT Apprenticeship Program for Indigenous Peoples is shown.]
Gina Wilson: There were some initiatives with students a number of years ago, the Indigenous Student Employment Opportunity Initiative.
[00:25:48 A Government of Canada webpage titled "Indigenous Student Employment Program" is shown with text that reads:
"Be part of the next generation of Indigenous leaders"
"The NRC's Indigenous Student Employment Program is a unique opportunity designed to empower Indigenous students by providing hands-on experience and an opportunity to develop valuable skills in the world of scientific research and development. We're committed to diversity, inclusion and fostering meaningful engagement at the NRC."]
Gina Wilson: Those are programs that actually get to the heart of what some of the issues that Indigenous employees experience in a colonial system, I would say. And so, it continues to be a challenge, absolutely. Some workplaces do much better than others, some work units do better than others, some departments do better than others to retaining Indigenous employees. And so, it's still a work in progress, lots of work still to do, and I think we can do it.
Cara Vandale: So, Gina, how many departments have you been in and how many ministers have you served?
Gina Wilson: Okay, so actually, I've been in eight different federal departments and some of them I actually went back not only once but twice.
[00:26:37 Text appears onscreen:
"Professional experience"
"Since July 2022 – Deputy Minister of Indigenous Services"
"2020-2022 – Deputy Minister of Women and Gender Equality and Youth and Senior Associate Deputy Minister of Diversity, Inclusion and Youth"
"2019 – Deputy Minister for Public Safety and Senior Advisor to the Privy Council Office"
"2017-2019 – Deputy Minister for Women and Gender Equality"
"2015-2017 – Associate Deputy Minister of Public Safety"
"2014-2015 – Associate Deputy Minister of Employment and Social Development"
"2013-2014 – Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada"
"2011-2013 – Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and Regional Operators, Public Safety Canada"
"2008-2011 – Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Regional Operations, Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada"
"2006-2008 – Assistant Deputy Minister, Indian Residential Schools Resolution, Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada"
"2005-2006 – Director General, Engagement, Partnerships, Aboriginal Affairs Secretariat, Privy Council Office"
"2003-2005 – Director General, Aboriginal Affairs, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada".]
Gina Wilson: So, I've moved around a little bit within those eight departments. Ministers? Ten ministers while I've been in the deputy ranks, three Conservative ministers and seven Liberal ministers, and that's a very special, unique relationship that I developed with each and every one of them, and they have really tough jobs and I honour all of them that I've worked with. They've all had their stories and I just have benefited from that experience.
Cara Vandale: That leads me to another question. I'm curious about, how do you juggle the different hats when you're a deputy minister, briefing a minister or developing a relationship with a minister and being someone who's an Indigenous advocate but also a public servant, and now you're dealing also with the political angle? How do you work with all those dimensions at the same time?
Gina Wilson: Well, I've said that I've always worked in pretty safe spaces. And often in the public service, you will find very open people who want to understand all types of perspectives and angles. So, I feel I've always been heard, even when the message has been difficult to hear at times. So, for sure, I would have advised ministers and I would have put on my Indigenous hat and say, this is really absurd, you don't want to do this because this is the implications it will have on this community, or this is something you really should consider doing, and I don't necessarily think it's ever having had switched the hat from a federal hat to an Indigenous hat, it's all part of who you are as a person, being able to offer credible advice, honest advice, good public policy advice, and ministers make decisions based on that, and whatever those decisions are, are something you implement as a public servant. So, I never necessarily found any significant degree of conflict between those parts of me. It's all me.
Cara Vandale: I believe you referred to this as walking in worlds and walking in more than one world at once but it sounds like it's very organic.
Gina Wilson: It's very organic. Yeah, I would say so, and some people have referred to it as walking in two worlds. Some people have referred to it as two-eyed seeing. It actually can benefit the public service tremendously when you are offering advice from a lived experience because you are bringing advice that others may not have, perspectives they don't embody. And so, definitely a positive benefit to public policy is having diverse views.
Cara Vandale: I'd love to move the conversation over to the idea of reconciliation now. And I'm wondering, what does reconciliation actually look like inside a federal department on a regular working day?
Gina Wilson: Well, I guess it's very tempting to point to things like announcements or programs or policies or doing operations in a certain way that have an Indigenous element or aspect to it, but that's not necessarily my view of what reconciliation is. Reconciliation to me is very much a shift in the relationship between the federal government and Indigenous peoples, and that shift means very much a reset of how we interact. For instance, reconciliation cannot be just transactional. It cannot. It's actually a relationship, a long-term relationship. So, by a transaction, I mean, you go out, you have a policy, you have a consultation, you send a letter, you get feedback, you go away, and you do your thing. That may seem to feel like reconciliation while you're in the midst of it but in fact, that's a transaction. Reconciliation is a long-term relationship. So, whoever is working on that consultation or that program or that initiative in fact needs to see that through, needs to maintain that relationship, needs to be able to reset the actual systems that we have to reflect what the Indigenous group is looking for. Now, that's a lot of systems in a big enterprise. And I think for many areas, that is starting to take shape in some parts, again, similar to the work on retention. Different work units do it better than others, different departments are added much more closely than others, still a work in progress.
Cara Vandale: Are there any particular skillsets that you think federal public servants could develop more to help with reconciliation?
Gina Wilson: Well, not so much skillsets at this point but I would say I would start with knowledge and having the knowledge to be able to understand Indigenous realities. So, I always encourage public servants to include, in their learning plan, not just a class at the school, although the classes at the school are very good, but being able to actually be in community, going to events, going to where Indigenous peoples are and the realities of their experience, so definitely something that I encourage all public servants to do and gain that knowledge, gain that understanding. Skillsets? I think one of the competencies we have in the public service is engagement and relationship-building and so on. I think that is a really good skill to develop with Indigenous peoples. To be able to sit down, interact with a group of Indigenous peoples, Indigenous leaders, to watch others in terms of how they interact with Indigenous peoples, Indigenous leaders, and to get to some degree of resolution and understanding when you are interacting, I think, is a good skill set to develop.
Cara Vandale: What about mindsets? How do we better shift mindsets?
Gina Wilson: Yeah, that's a great question because when we are operating in our own worldview, we have a way of seeing the world. And when you come to understand others, they have a different view. I remember getting off a taxi cab once with a former boss and we pulled up and there was a statue there, one of those colonial statues somewhere in Ottawa, I can't even remember what it was, and we got out of the taxi and he goes, isn't that nice? And I said, that is the most colonial-looking thing I've ever seen. And he just stopped and he said, I've never seen it that way, I've never seen it what you've just said. So, I've had a lot of experiences with people in the public service when I've said things off the cuff and just provided a different perspective, and people who are open to learning recognize that and want to understand, and they understand that they need to shift their mindset. And so, that's not an easy thing to do. You can't teach shifting a mindset. You can try to design a course but that would be actually quite challenging. You actually have to interact and be with Indigenous peoples to actually start to make that move from being someone who just observes to being a true ally.
Cara Vandale: And as someone who's shared her perspective and given people something new or different to think about, you've absolutely been a change-maker in the public service, and what advice would you give to aspiring leaders about how to be a change-maker, how to question the status quo, or like you referred to earlier about you didn't like the recipe, how do you change the recipe?
Gina Wilson: Yeah, there's a lot of young public servants now that are joining the federal government, middle people, middle managers who've been here, who in their own ways make change with very subtle types of things to very big initiatives. My advice to someone who wants to make that change is to become a better leader yourself. So, focus on your own capabilities and competencies. Develop your leadership skills by watching others lead and keeping notes on what you like about those leaders, what you don't like about those leaders, but also to communicate your vision very effectively, so being able to explain in a respectful way what you want to change, and you do that with your employees, you do that with your partners, you do that with your bosses, your supervisors. You make it very clear, this is the change I would like to see, whatever that may be. It can be absolutely small. It could be big. It could be any of those things, but communicating that is important. And so, that's some of the advice I would give. I could go on a little bit but I'll stop there.
Cara Vandale: Well, I'd love to actually dig into that a little bit more if we could. I'm curious about horizontal engagement. How do you get colleagues on board who may not share the same perspective as you do?
Gina Wilson: Yeah, I've been around many of those tables and I would say that I've had some really fantastic supportive bosses, deputies, and ADMs and DGs in my career who have looked at me a little bit interestingly, sometimes puzzled, but trying to understand, I would say, where I was coming from, and I think the approach that I used was one of doing so in a good way, okay? So, you can be very honest and very strong about your views but you could do that in a respectful, kind way as well. So, that's an important part of how I try to influence others at the table. I would always think about, how would my elders talk about this? How would they express themselves in this way? And so, my elders being great role models, including my grandmothers, how would they try to teach in this way? So, my interactions at meetings and tables have been quite deliberate when I want to influence an outcome or a program or an initiative, and I would say that approach has worked for me. It might be different for others but that's how I've influenced.
Cara Vandale: I'd love to get your perspective on this next question. So, if a young Algonquin woman came to you today and said she was thinking about a career in the federal public service. What would you tell her?
Gina Wilson: I would say it's a rewarding thing to do, it's a gratifying career. Like I said, I've been blessed. I've been privileged to have seen what I've seen, to have been a part of what I've been a part of, to have influenced what I have, to have been part of the most significant historical changes in Canada when it comes to Indigenous peoples and the federal government, so quite rewarding in that respect. I would also say just as challenging, and it's how you compose yourself, how you manage through those challenges, and I would also say to take care of yourself because your spirit can be impacted through the workplace, you bring your emotions sometimes to the workplace, everyone is human, and when you do bring your whole self, that you take care of yourself. And so, being able to manage and balance life and work and colleagues and all of those relationships, you need to be well yourself. If you want to serve and help Canadians, you need to take care of yourself first.
Cara Vandale: So, you are at the end of a long and beautiful career in the public service. If you imagine five years from now or ten years from now, where would you like the public service to go? And what do you think it means to be able to get there? What advice might you want to leave for leaders who are still around?
Gina Wilson: Well, maybe I'll just pick up on that last point about wellness. The pandemic was hard on people. There have been issues that have arisen in Canada that we see on the streets today around wellness. And so, I think again, I just want to bear down on the fact that we need to take care of ourselves if we are going to take care of our teams, if we're going to take care of our employees, our workplaces. We need to focus first on ourselves, so just amplifying that aspect. So, I hope the public service is one in five years that is very focused on that. Secondly, I would love to see a public service that really, really is grasping the notion of learning, and I'm saying that not because I'm reminded of the school here but because it is actually some of the best parts about our jobs is being able to take in information, learn new things, join different departments, do different things. For sure, people come in and they want to sort of focus on policy because they're policy people. Go to operations and you'll actually find out where it's really at sometimes in certain parts of your career. So, being able to learn different things and continue to enjoy and be joyful about learning is something that I would hope the public service continues to do voraciously, and I think part of that aspect, because of the need for wellness, because of the need for learning and so on, I think it's important that we prioritize as well. So, I see this government doing that quite a bit and showing us how to do that. I think the public service needs to learn how to ruthlessly prioritize when it comes to our workload, and I think that some of the work around focusing and simplifying and so on bodes really well for that kind of public service. So, in five years, I see us on a good path, on a good road to that.
Cara Vandale: Gina Wilson, public servant, trailblazer, and a proud Algonquin woman who has spent a career making our institutions work better for all of the people in this country. Thank you so much for your time, for your honesty, and your wisdom today. Chi Miigwech. Thank you again.
Gina Wilson: Miigwech. Thanks.
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