Transcript
Transcript: Enhancing Environmental Stewardship and Policy Development Through Indigenous Science
[00:00:01 The CSPS logo appears on screen.]
[00:00:03 The logo fades to Dr. Jordan Hollman.]
Dr. Jordan Hollman (Environment and Climate Change Canada.): Hi. Welcome to our event today called 'Enhancing Environmental Stewardship and Policy Development through Indigenous Science.' I'm Dr. Jordan Hollman; I'm going to be your moderator today. I'm an Environmental Assessment Officer in the Environmental Protection Branch of Environment and Climate Change Canada. And before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge that I'm joining you from Ottawa, which is the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people. And I encourage you to take a moment, wherever it is that you are, to acknowledge the traditional territories, traditional Indigenous territories of wherever it is that you're watching this.
[00:00:51 Camera zooms out to show Dr. Jordan Hollman and Dr. Myrle Ballard sitting together]
So, I'm very excited to introduce our guest for today, Dr. Myrle Ballard. Dr. Ballard is a Canada Research Chair, and associate professor in the Faculty of Science at the University of Calgary. She works in the Department of Earth, Energy and the Environment. She's an Anishinaabe scholar from Lake St. Martin First Nation, and she holds her doctorate in natural resources and environmental management. So, she's trained both in Western science and Indigenous science, and is the perfect person to help us bridge this gap. Her research focuses on Indigenous science, particularly the environmental knowledge and ecological understanding embedded in Indigenous ways of knowing.
From 2022 to 2024, Dr. Ballard served as the first Director of Indigenous Science Division at Environment and Climate Change Canada. In this role, she was really responsible for the establishment of the Government of Canada's first permanent Indigenous Science Division, advancing the inclusion of Indigenous science in environmental policy and in decision making. And this initiative aligns with Canada's commitment to reconciliation, and responds to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada's call to integrate Indigenous knowledge systems within government and in academia.
Dr. Ballard's research includes documenting the impacts of flooding and emergency response efforts in her home community of Lake St. Martin First Nation and the surrounding areas. She also explores the use of Anishinaabemowin as a baseline for monitoring ecosystem changes, analyzing how the original names of places and natural features can reflect environmental indicators. And so with that, yeah, it's an honour to have you here, Dr. Ballard.
[00:03:06 A slide appears on screen: Three-Eyed Seeing, Anishinaabe Stewardship Laws and Biodiversity Monitoring. Dr. Myrle Ballard. Department of Earth, Energy and Environment, Faculty of Science, University of Calgary, Calgary, Alberta. (Logo of the University of Calgary in the lower righthand corner)]
[00:03:22 A slide appears on screen: Overview. Three-Eyed Seeing. Our Relations. Indigenous Science. Indigenous and Anishinaabe Stewardship Laws. Western Science.]
Dr. Myrle Ballard (Indigenous Science and Sustainability.): Yes. So, thank you for inviting me. And this afternoon, I'm going to be talking about the work that I do, mainly through the Three-Eyed Seeing, Anishinaabe stewardship laws and biodiversity monitoring, using Three-Eyed Seeing. So, I'm going to be doing a presentation, but I'm not going to be the only one who is going to be talking during the presentation. I know, you'll be asking me questions, and as each slide appears, if you're interested, interject.
So, the talk today is about my research that I'm doing on Three-Eyed Seeing, and specifically, it's about our relations, Indigenous science and Western science. And within the Indigenous science we have the Anishinaabe stewardship laws, which I'm going to go into more detail.
[00:03:41 A slide appears on screen: Indigenous Science: Distinct, time-tested, and methodological knowledge system that can enhance and complement western science (ECCC 2022). Knowledge systems and practices of Indigenous Peoples, which are rooted in their cultural traditions and relationships to their Indigenous context (ECCC 2022). Gives rise to a diversity of technologies such as hunting, fishing, plant cultivation, navigation, architecture, art and healing (Cajete 2000). It is the knowledge of plants, species behaviour, land and water. Not ancient, but constantly evolving based on real time.]
So, Indigenous science is very specific, it's different from Indigenous knowledge, Indigenous knowledge systems. If you're going to say Indigenous knowledge systems, you have to say Western knowledge systems, because we're always comparing the two sciences, and comparing working with them Indigenous science, Western science. And it's different from traditional knowledge as well, they're not the same thing, so they're very different. And Indigenous science is about the knowledge held by Indigenous peoples since time immemorial. It's real-time science, it's constantly changing. It's not static, it's constantly evolving. Indigenous science know about the lands, about the waters, because it's real-time events that taking place, real-time activities. And Indigenous science are the first responders of the land. Meaning, say, for example, I take an ambulance when there's an accident, something is wrong. They are the first responders to the accident. And because of Indigenous peoples, Indigenous peoples, of course, our connection with the lands and waters. They know what's happening on the land. They are the first responders, and they bring this knowledge forward so that we can all act upon it.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And I think something that's interesting here that I want to bring up that you talked about, is Indigenous science isn't just this old knowledge, this historical knowledge. When you talk about, you know, it's almost like a living thing. And when I try to look at that from the perspective of Western science, you know, Western science is really built in the scientific method in this. You have observations and hypotheses and then you build. And when I hear you talk about this, it sounds like Indigenous science is also built on observations, repeated multiple observations. Is that fair?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. Yes, that's fair because Indigenous science is the knowledge of the land, and it's on the observations, repeated observations. They know when things are good, and that they know when things are wrong. So that's when the repeated observations, that's the same, like the same method as Western science, but it's a little bit different. And as well, too, Indigenous science about it… it's both about qualitative, quantitative, because you use both of these systems when you determine what the science is with Indigenous science. For example, when Indigenous peoples make medicine, it's a quantitative, but that's the same thing as going into a laboratory doing experiments, say you do a quantitative analysis and this is the same as Indigenous science. Indigenous science knows that you can't take plants for medicines from a contaminated area. It has to be far away from places where there's no contamination. And it involves a specific… when you take our senses, for example, you have the plants need to feel a certain way, their touch, they have to taste a certain way, they have to smell a certain way, and as well, too, like listening to what's out there. And those are all quantitative. And when you take… when you make medicines, you have to keep adjusting to the colour of the medicine that you're making. And the medicines that need to be picked, they have to be picked at a certain time, you can't just go pick medicines whenever you feel like it, they have to look a certain way. And there's protocols involved with picking plants, medicinal plants for example. And the changes in the water, too, like Indigenous people know when there's changes in the water because the association of certain insects, plants with the water. When a horse that drinks from the water, well, that means that the water's good. When a horse doesn't drink from water, and any of the other wild animals, for example, when they know when the water is good.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And I'm curious hearing that. Like, it's really interesting that there's also this strong quantitative piece with Indigenous science. And I'm curious, like when establishing Indigenous science, does it… is it also similar in Western science, that there's sort of an iterative process to learning over time, like one piece builds onto the next and then you learn as you see what works? Or how do you… how do you build sort of as a living thing?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. Yeah, it's built over time. For example, water, let's talk about water. And Indigenous peoples knowledge of water, the knowledge of it built on the knowledge over time, it's an iterative process because they know what the water was like. For example, Anishinaabemowin, the words that are used are specific place names. They know about the water, the naming of places, of certain points around the watershed, around the ecosystem. They were named as specific to their role in the ecosystem. So, the process changes. So, the iterative process where the knowledge is built upon each other, but at the same time they know this is where the difference becomes important. They know the original names of the spaces and places, like around water, because they're the ones who live in the area, who use the area, versus a Western scientist who just parachutes into an area, he's just there for a certain time and leaves. And it might be a different scientist who is there next time, but for Indigenous peoples it's always the same and the knowledge is built, it's built upon each other. And they know the changes that are occurring since the original naming after the oral history, the oral tradition and the real-time events that are taking place.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, that's such an interesting way to think about it, because, let's say a Western scientist, if you come to me and say, oh, this is Indigenous science and, oh, the name of this place tells me about it. And you might think, well, that's not data driven or that's not science driven. But I think what's important and what I'm hearing to understand is it's a different way of being and it's a different, cultural way of passing down knowledge. Just because names mean one thing to Western or settler culture, the name was almost a part of that scientific process. That was sort of how the knowledge was locked in and passed down, and it doesn't mean it was never quantitative, and it doesn't mean any of those things that we don't associate it with normal science. That's just part of the culture and how it got passed. That's… yeah, that's really interesting.
[00:11:41 A slide appears on screen: Our Relations: Relational. All Flora and fauna (Winged, Crawling, Two-legged, Four-legged, Finned). Water. Air. Sky, sun, moon and stars.]
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. So the knowledge is not ancient, it's constantly revolving, evolving, and it's based on real-time events, real-time changes. So, the important thing is with the Three-Eyed Seeing framework is our relations, which means our relations is everything that's out there beside humans. For example, the lands, the waters, all the species, flora and fauna, and those are our relations. And Indigenous peoples know that we live with our relations, and we are responsible for them. Our relations, because of Indigenous peoples' close connection with the land, and like I said, they are the first responders of something that's happening on the lands, waters up to species. Indigenous Peoples will be the voice for our relations. And it's important to listen then to our relations, what they have to say, because their voice matters. We have to learn to listen to what the water is saying, because as scientists, we're always making decisions for the water, we're always making decisions for the land, we're always making decisions for the species. And do we ever stop to ask them what they want, what is it that that they… want? And then this is what our relations is to the Three-Eyed Seeing, is us stopping, learning to listen to the land, the learning to listen to the water. Exactly what is it that the water is telling us, and we have to listen to what is wrong with the water.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, and I really love this Three-Eye Seeing piece in your research because – and you can help me make sure I'm understanding this correctly – but the most common model for Indigenous science was something that I've heard it told to me called Two-Eyed Seeing, where you have the Western science perspective and you have the Indigenous science perspective, and you're trying to weave those together. And you can help me here, your Three-Eyed Seeing piece, that's bringing in a third piece, which is that knowledge of the land and the voice of the land itself. Is that right?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And that's just so interesting to me because we, often, I think – and I don't know if this is a Western culture thing or just how we are as people, but we see… sometimes look at, what do we need, what do we need from the land, what do we need to get, what do we want the water to be like? And we don't really think what does the land want, what does the land need? And is that a good understanding of where…
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: … you're going with the Three-Eyed Seeing?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, I think you're getting it, so… (laughs)
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Getting there, so making little progress.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: You're getting it, yeah. Yeah, we're making progress here. So, I think it's very important to understand, for example, growing up, and my mother was the one that taught me about what is around me, telling me about the way the leaves sound, the way the trees, when it's windy, the sound of the leaves, the sound of rain coming, these are the indicators. And when the land is destroyed, for example, the research that I've done was about flooding, man-made floods, it's anthropogenic, and from the changes in what used to be a sustainable livelihood in the community to one that was where the land was completely destroyed, decimated by the flood. And observing changes in the landscape and the vegetation, and what are what are the indicators of these changes and this is where Indigenous people's knowledge of the land is really important, because they're the ones who live there, they know what these changes are.
If frogs live in… we live close to water, back and forth, that's their habitat. Indigenous peoples know that when there's no frogs, so they don't hear the sound of frogs – which is a common occurrence when you live in the country, like springtime, you hear frogs. And when I talked to the elders doing my research, and they said, they named the lot of these… what the indicators are of change. When there's no frogs, when you don't hear frogs anymore, that means that something is wrong with the land. And they named birds too, that disappeared because of flooding and the change in the landscape. Like if a Western scientist came to Lake St. Martin and there's no water, the report that would be taken back is that there's no water. But what the Western scientist fails to capture is the history of the changes that are on the land. The Western scientist was not there when there was a flood, when it's destroyed livelihoods of the people or displaced these little animals. So, it's important to have, to know, to be there when they experience the aspect of the knowledge. You have to live it.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And I'm hearing, it's interesting you talked earlier about Indigenous science being sort of a living thing and maybe some of this the Indigenous knowledge, the history is almost like baseline conditions. And you know, I'm framing this in my own Western science-y way, right? I think, okay, you have your baseline conditions and then you talk about, like, the sound of the frogs or different things and it's an indicator, and it might be different from Western science where we say, okay, if we're looking for an indicator in the water, we measure this exact parameter in the water, we measure that exact parameter of the water. But when you bring in that third eye and the land speaking, the frogs are experiencing the change in the water, they know the water's changed. And if it makes them act differently, it's just I'm framing this in my own Western way, that it doesn't… there's totally normal, Western science processes feeding all of this, but it's so complex. But the frog is doing the complexity for you. It's feeling the land, and it knows something's changing it and it's telling you that. Is that a fair analogy, me trying to translate this into Western science for myself, a little bit?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. Yeah, that's a fair analogy. And from there, that's why it's a Three-Eyed Seeing, because you have to use all three lenses. And the lens of our relation, so the lens of Indigenous science, and the lens of Western science. You have to use all three. Because in order to be more proactive, in order to protect, in order to conserve, we have to use all three of the sciences. The lens of our relations is really critical because that's the goal all the time, is to like the work of what ECCC is doing, it's a protection, how to protection and conservation. Right? So, what do we want to protect, what do we want to conserve? We always, we want to do things, what we think we should do. So, the Three-Eyed, like I said, is being the lens for our relations, asking our relations what is it they want protection from? What do they want conserved? Do they want their habitats, do they want them protected from development, exploration, et cetera?
Dr. Jordan Hollman: What about the Western science piece of that? What's that, how do you weave that in? And is it once you have some indicators and you have the knowledge, then you start going in and maybe looking at specific parameters using Western science, or what does that look like?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, yeah. I'm going to be explaining that more.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: I'll let you get to your slide and you can explain that, then.
[00:21:39 A slide appears on screen: Three-Eyed Seeing. A series of three equidistant circles are arranged in a triangle around another central circle that says 'Three-Eyed Seeing'. These circles create three equal sized wedges of a larger circle. The top circle is labelled as 'Indigenous Science' and between it and the centre are the topics 'Anishinaabe Laws: Creation, Natural, Language, Traditional'. The left circle is labelled as 'Our Relations' and between it and the centre are the topics 'Land, Water'. The final, right circle is labelled as 'Western Science' and between it and the centre are the topics 'Biology, Physics, Ecolo, etc.' The image is labelled © Myrle Ballard, 2021.]
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Okay, yeah. For example, yeah, this is our relations of this, the protection of flora, fauna, everything that when you're calling… everything. So, these pictures are all from my community, if you're interested. Yeah, these are all my photos. Yeah. So, this is the framework, and you can see on the top is when I talk to elders, I use, I use a lot of ground-proofing, because you have to be accurate in the spaces and places that you talk about. And the use of Indigenous names is really important because the use of Indigenous names is what tells you the history of the land, the original condition of the land or the waters, whatever it is. So, and from there, we can start developing the other indicators of change. This is not… Indigenous science, is about the Anishinaabe laws of stewardship, which is the natural law, the creation law, traditional law and language law. And these are all important for stewardship, and I'm going to be defining them in the next slide. But the bottom left slide, as far as the water and the fish, these are our relations. And if we speak for the fish, they're telling us that something is wrong with the waters, and the waters too, and the indicators, too, that something is wrong with our relations, for example, water, the change in the water colour, the way (inaudible)… you talk about Western. So, the change in water colour is an indicator of the temperature of the water and what's in the water. And Western science, this is my research. This was around the Lake St. Martin area that I did the research, monitoring, et cetera. And these are really important. I want to talk about the framework Three-Eyed Seeing, the Western science can be, and the various disciplines that we're familiar with, with, for example, biology, et cetera, chemistry. Or it could be engineering, now because they are Western sciences.
[00:23:24 A slide appears on screen: Ballard: Anishinaabe Laws Compared to Western Methods. A column lists Creation law, Language law, Natural law and Traditional law. A second column lists Biodiversity, Ecosystems and biomes, Nature, Celestial and astronomy, Aquatic ecology and Management and conservation and protection. A red line from every item in the first column connects with every item in the second column.]
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, and it sounds like there's… Indigenous science has values built more directly into it, where maybe Western science is somewhat, say, agnostic to the values part. It's just very direct, this is the data, this is what tells us. But in my hearing, Indigenous science builds the values right hand directly.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. Okay, I'm going to skip over this one.
[00:23:52 A slide appears on screen: Natural law: laws of how Earth was created; original purpose of waters, lands, air, flora and fauna (cycles). Language law: science embedded in Indigenous language of the role and purpose of natural law (Place-based, spaces and places). Creation law: all of life on Earth; balance, harmony. Traditional law: teachings of all nature laws (Relational, Njinay, Patawa, Seven teachings)]
Dr. Myrle Ballard: For example, on natural law, we're talking about Indigenous science. Natural law is about the way the ecosystem is, the ecosystem or else… the way the system was. – I want to talk about system, the earth systems, the ecosystem – the way it was before the waters are diverted, for example, before dams are built, before there's a contamination into the water, like from a… say it's from sewers, it is diverting their waste into the river.
So, before that… that's what the natural law is, before contamination. And language law is really important, because language law links with natural law. It's a language law that is part of the driver. For example, I want you to understand Anishinaabemowin fluently like me, you'll start to understand the roots of these-… of spaces and places that have Indigenous names. For example, Saskatchewan is a really good example. Saskatchewan is the Anglicized word for Kisiskâciwan, which means where the water drains, and that name was given before the boundaries, before the boundaries of Saskatchewan. And that's an example of looking how the landscapes change, because if you think of Saskatchewan, it's very flat. There's a certain part of Saskatchewan that has very high mineral contents, there's salt fields, or potassium… potassium, different minerals. So, when you look at the landscape, the Indigenous Peoples knew the landscape and knew about the landscape, and from there you can start talking to people and then find, using both of the sciences, Indigenous and Western science, and start identifying what are the indicators of a change over time.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: So, when you're weaving those together, the Western and Indigenous, are you looking for… you have your Western science indicators, you're looking for maybe specific things, and then what type of indicators would come from the Indigenous part of the weave in that example?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. So for example, the Indigenous name would be the baseline data, right, the Indigenous name. Saskatchewan. What Saskatchewan meant at that time when it was named, how it was named, why it was named. So when you start to identify what the changes were over time, you start to understand how these changes and you start to track of what are the changes in the soil, what are the changes, say, for example, trees where there were trees there before, and identifying what the salinity is of the soil, et cetera. There's different things you… I monitor.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, and I think maybe we'll get to this later in your presentation, but I'm really curious to hear how… if you have suggestions on, once you get this information, how do we use it? Right. But…
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: So, our creation law refers to everything, the whole Earth, everything. It includes the celestial bodies, stars and because, so, that's important, too, because Indigenous people used stars for navigation before, … and that those are very important, that those are part of the system. So, traditional law refers to the traditional teachings. And this is where it's really important, too, because being an Anishinaabemowin speaker, a lot of the words that were taught-… I don't like to use word, that were part of my… my upbringing is a better word because I'm not taught, I wasn't told that to sit down, I'm going to teach you today what…
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: … What is the meaning of, it is not like that.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: It's more holistically mixed into life, right?
- Yeah, it's part of everyday life. So the teachings, for example, we have teachings that are closely resemble ethics, what we call ethics, but they're not ethics; they're part of life, our life, everyday life, the way we treat what is around us. We have words that are instilled in us. So for example, myself Njinay means… that was a word that the spoken to me, not to harm anything, I'll suffer the consequences. It's kind of like karma, but not karma.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, but more direct, more in the moment?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: More… yeah, it speaks to you. And that's what guided my behaviour. Patawa, it's not about you, but it's for the others. Others will suffer from what you do. Yeah, that's what Patawa.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: And the Seven teaching as well, we're taught to respect, love, everything. Yeah, those are part of that. And as well, too, part of other teachings is to look after what's here for the next seven generations. That's really important. Yeah, preserving. And it's all about conservation, preservation. Yeah, the protection, everything. Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And I think, in a lot of ways, that's a shared value with…
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: … At least in Environment and Climate Change Canada, that preserving for the future.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: And understanding it's not just for us, and it's…
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: … It's bigger than that, it's more important than that.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. So… and yeah, it's about relational too. It's relational because part of the Three-Eyed Seeing is our relations, so the relationship we have with everything, that's… yeah.
[00:31:06 A slide appears on screen: What Indigenous Science is not / Ce qui n'est pas la science autochtone. Images of water and land are shown.]
So, Indigenous science is the natural law, and when we start altering the ecosystem, the waters, we damage the water, we damage the lands. and what's in the lands, what's living on the lands.
This is a picture of my community of Lake St. Martin, this was taken in 2011, and after about 60 years of flooding. There's a lot more story behind this but I'm not going to go into detail. And the upper left is an open channel that was constructed to divert the waters, of the flooded waters. And the bottom pictures is a picture of the Fairford Dam, just a little water control structure situated to the west of Lake St. Martin, and this little water control structure has done so much damage to the lands of Lake St. Martin.
[00:32:16 A slide appears on screen: Indigenous Science: holistic, free from contamination, pure, formulas, colour, consistency, seasons and time, rest and regeneration, weather, species, oral, land, not for sale: only as needed.
Western Science: silo, free from contamination, pure or mixture, formulas, colour, consistency, seasons, rest and regeneration, weather, species, written, classroom, for sale: mass-produced.]
And this is just a comparison of Indigenous science what's… of Western science, I'm not going to go into detail. A lot of people know the basics, so I'm not going into detail. But the difference, I think, is Indigenous science is more holistic and Western science is more siloed.
And I think that's where we need to work more together, because Western science, I think… I don't think Western science can learn from Indigenous science, if they start including Indigenous science in the work that they do, because the sciences are the same-different, different concepts some, but there's the same. When I talk about bridging and weaving, when it… the Indigenous science division, it's about bridging, braiding and weaving. And maybe I can go into that a little bit here.
[00:33:24 A slide appears on screen: Methodology: oral tradition, oral history, storytelling, community-based, participatory research, listening, elders, knowledge holders and youth / Méthodologie : tradition orale, histoire orale, narration, recherche participative communautaire, écoute, aînés et aînées, détentrices et détenteurs du savoir, et jeunes. Images of elders and community members are shown.]
The bridging and braiding, and when I talk about the first responders, right, that they're the ones that know what's happening on the land, there's something abnormal, observations, and including if something tastes a little off, what they see. So, that's a braiding concept. So, with the Indigenous science division, there's bridging, where when you build a bridge, for example, you build a bridge to connect, right? Like a bridge, a bridge over a river, and you connect that to lands, whatever. Yeah, it's a connection. So that's the same with Indigenous science and Western science – you're bridging. And I know you want to ask something?
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. No, it's… I'm just sitting here thinking and looking at your last slide and thinking about you talking about… I saw on there siloing under Western science, and you're talking about bridging the two. And I'm trained, I'm a scientist, I'm an engineer, and I'm extremely passionate about science, but especially talking to you, one thing that becomes apparent is science, Western science has a limitation. That it's so… you can focus on minutia and you get almost perfect understanding if you work hard enough, but in environmental systems, they're so complex and there's so many things in the water and there's so many things in the air. Just imagine trying to predict the weather more than a couple of weeks out, and you end up failing because the system is too complex.
And when you talk-… and I hear you talking about the land, the connection, the land, being on the land, the first responders and seeing it, I hear this opportunity to bridge from Indigenous science to where I am. And there's all this extra knowledge that maybe looks at the whole system, which is so fascinating and potentially a really useful perspective to bring in. Because, my specific area of research, when I did my doctorate, it's one very little thing, right, and I got very good at it. But if you asked me how that… how does that connect to the next thing, and the next thing and the next thing, maybe I'll answer once or twice, but eventually I'll fall apart. But it sounds like Indigenous science… I start bottom up and you come top down, the whole picture It's not even a question; I just… you really were getting me thinking, is all.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. Yeah, and that's the difference. Indigenous science is holistic because it's about everything; it's not just one. But, like I said when I described flooding, what happens when it floods, it's not just about water, it's about the species that are affected, are the ones that live in the holes in the ground, the fish, everything, the birds that used to have habitat there. Yeah, everything's affected.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. There's so much that goes into that, that if you wanted to study it with Western science, you would need so many different people and disciplines and… but if you just see the whole picture and just… Yeah, I'm fascinated to hear, as you keep going through your presentation, to hear about how to maybe do that weaving or how to do that bridging because I'm thinking to myself, how do I use this? How do I incorporate this into what I do or my practice and… ?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. Yeah, so I think the key is bridging because that's where, like I said, bridging, you have to build that connection, whatever form it is, you have to build that bridge, that connection to connect the two together. And Indigenous people, Indigenous science is about being the voice for those that are impacted, it was being the voice for our relations. And that's where… that's where it's really important. And Indigenous scientists, l gave you an example, the teachings, it's not about, I want to say teachings, but we're not being… we're not told to sit down, "Today, I'm going to teach you." Like I said, it's not about that; it's about every day. It's about life. And that's where the difference is, is that it's about the land. Every day, what someone said the weather is like.
For example, I always talk about this. My mother talks about the way the sun sets. And from there, she shares what the weather is going to be like the next few days, the next week, just by the colour of the sunset and the width of the colour, the intensity of the certain colours. And that that's part of the knowledge and which… leaves, which direction the wind blows, the way it sounds, everything! And the way the birds sound when it's… when something is going to happen, they sense, because they know how when that changes are, when the changes are happening, within the weather. For example, the species too, they have mates, so they mate for life. We think they don't have emotions, but they have emotions and they suffer the heartbreak when they lose their mates. And we don't think anything of that, but they… when we inflict pain on them, they suffer the pain.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And I'm thinking now, you know, you talk about that heartbreak and being removed. I'm thinking about you, your path in your career, coming from this such community-based science, Indigenous science, and coming from that. And then, I suppose being courageous enough to pull yourself out of that, come in the government where it's large, it's structured, and now go and become a professor, a Canada Research Chair, where also it's very structured. And what is that like trying to take something that's community-based and fit it somehow into these bigger systems, academia, government, that is really not community-based? Is that… what's that process like for you in that part of the work?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, it's very challenging at times because it's about breaking down barriers, breaking down doors, breaking through, shattering these glasses that are out there, like breaking through them and changing people. I feel like it's as if I'm always constantly explaining, explaining. And I guess that's part of the challenge, that's part the work I do. Even the terms that we people are so familiar with, changing terms because words are so powerful. Words, I'll go a little bit into words, language, my language.
We are, the language that I speak, it's Anishinaabemowin, even the word Anishinaabe, it means man, but we don't separate, we don't have any pronouns in my language. We don't say he, she, we, they, like her. Naabe is man, but we don't think of it as man. It's hard to explain, not like the English language. Anish, nish is of the ground, Anishinaabe. And the sound that I make when I speak is my tongue, indenaniw. Indenaniw, that's where my words form. Inde, heart. So you probably heard the saying "Words can break your heart?"
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Be careful what you say, you can hurt other peoples with your tongue. Well that's… we have… we knew that way before because of the association, the body, like the body is it's part of the ecosystem, it's part of our teachings with the way we interact with land, with our relations. And with that language law, we have directions; north, east, west, south. Are you familiar with? With north, we say, Giiwedinong, it means north in my language. Giiwe means going home. Waabanong – waabang, it means tomorrow. West, Ningaabii'anong, Ningaa, word dissolves. So these words are very… they describe the direction. For example, North, Giiwedinong, when I went to Chile the past few… the past three weeks, I met a researcher there who was doing research on birds that go to Chile to spend, let me see, winter they go south for…
Dr. Jordan Hollman: The migration?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, migration. Migration, because it's warm there. When it's fall here, it's springtime there. So they go there, fly there, and birds are so amazing, they're so amazing. But anyways, he was doing research with the birds from the Hudson Bay and he asked me when I talked about where I was from and describing. So birds are a really good example, like they travel north-south. Giiwedinong, they travel back home in the spring, summer, and they go home – Giiwe means home – to breed brood, for the reproduction. More life, like it's a cycle. And that there are words that are so important, it's, they add to the foundation of our teachings, of our understanding of the cycles, the ecosystems.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Do you think that understanding of words would be a good place for people to start that want to engage more?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, absolutely. Because my language is one of the first languages in Canada, and English and French are second and third languages. I think Canadians should learn a few Indigenous languages, and be forced to learn like the way we're forced to learn English or French.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: I'm curious if you… have you met and talked to different nations, different Indigenous cultures? Because it's weird, but the more you learn, you come in this Western culture and when you usually hear Indigenous peoples, or First Peoples, and when you're young, you just imagine this is just one group of people, right? But it's not, it's different nations. And I'm curious, the Indigenous science piece, the importance of words, is that something that you find is common across different nations, or is it more… is that…
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yes.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: … Anishinaabe?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: No, it's the same for Indigenous peoples around the world. Like I said, when I was in Chile the past three weeks, we got to visit the Indigenous people of Chile, the Mapuche, and we got to visit the various places on Chile. I went to the big island of Chiloé. We went to a remote village, (inaudible), which is 2,000 metres above sea level, right on the Argentina border, visited schools. So a lot of… there's a similarity amongst the Indigenous people where they name their places, too, based on the role of the ecosystem, and that's what… and that's a common thread about Indigenous peoples and their stewardship.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, and that's fascinating to hear that it's globally, because it almost implies that it's not something that was just culturally in Canada where we are, but maybe it's born of connection with the land.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
[00:47:15 A slide reappears on screen: Methodology: oral tradition, oral history, storytelling, community-based, participatory research, listening, elders, knowledge holders and youth.]
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, so, okay, moving along. (Laughs) So, the work that I do, the methodology, I work a lot with the knowledge holders, elders and the people who know the land. The picture on the left is my community again. Lake St. Martin, I did a lot of work here. And this particular area on the map is called The Narrows. Why is it called The Narrows, you figure? Does it look narrow right now?
Dr. Jordan Hollman: It does not.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: No. It was called The Narrows because it used to be narrow. And when I talk about the way the livelihoods were before, we had a lot of cattle growing up. I grew up with (inaudible) of a task associated with raising cattle, taking water, taking the cattle to water, feeding, et cetera, haying. So, this particular area was they used to cross the cattle from the north shore, which is this, to the south shore of Lake St. Martin, and that's my mother in the far front, in the blue t-shirt. And the water used to be shallow, the natural state of it, the natural law was shallow water. That's why it was called Narrows. They still take their cattle across from one side to the other for… some are grazing. And the shallow enough where the cattle don't… swept away. They used to cross there by horse and buggy, like that's where they went for the summers, and it was shallow enough. Now, you can't cross cattle and you can't cross it by horse and buggy. And this is what the spaces and places naming of the knowledge held by the people who live in their area is so important. If you are an outsider coming there, you would never know that history of that land.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And thinking about that change, I'm wondering now how does Indigenous science look at change over time? Because there's man-made changes to the land, you showed some of the channels doing water diverting. There's also natural changes to the land that occur over time. There's also, in the back of my head, I'm thinking, oh wow, climate change is probably going to bring big changes to the land. How does Indigenous science view that change, especially natural changes that maybe weren't just a channel, but… ?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. This is… yeah, this is why it's important. There's natural changes. For example, water, Indigenous people know that floods occur naturally maybe once every 50 years or so, and that's a natural flush… that's a natural process of nature cleansing itself. That's the way it prepares the land for new growth, regeneration of new life onto the land. But for our Western scientists, they think flood, "Oh it's flooding! We have to redirect water, we have to divert." They don't allow the land that to naturally look after itself. And this is what we need to start listening to the land rather than making decisions we think are good decisions; a lot of times they're not good decisions and we do more harm than good. Because we never asked the water what it wants. We never asked the water what it wants, so.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's so fascinating, this thinking about the Indigenous science has a broader look at some of those natural processes and it may be more accepting. Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
[00:51:23 A slide appears on screen: Aki's Pharmacy Compared to Products Made in a Laboratory.]
Yeah. So this again, is my background. This was taken on Big Rock. It's called Big Rock, because if you go to my community, a lot of it is… my community is called the Obashkodeyaang. It means land of the prairie. But if you go there now, you see the encroachment of trees, it's not prairie anymore. There's a lot of mixed growth. So this is a big rock on the prairie. Oh, it's actually a rock, Lake St. Martin was caused by a meteorite, so this is one of the results of the meteorite. And over time, there's a lot of growth there and it's ideal for blueberries, and there's all kinds of trees growing there, medicinal trees. During COVID, we used a lot of cedar inside our house to kill anything that was in the air. And I never contracted COVID, I never got sick because we had our own medicines that we took from the land. And the medicines that we have are… they're from the land versus the ones you get from the manufactured ones.
[00:52:52 A slide appears on screen: La science autochtone : Le feu et les plantes.]
This is, again, a picture of Big Rock. And the provinces that control burning, they don't allow fires, and that this leads to old growth accumulating which makes it, during a dry season, all the old growth accumulates, years and years and years. And if there is a lightning or an accidental spark that goes on land and then it goes up in flames. So, this was the Big Rock where I was talking with the elders and they shared stories with me before the controlled burning by provinces, where hey uses to pick tubs and tubs and tubs of blueberries. And for the last 50 years or so, there was not any blueberries growing on there. And then a few years ago, a fire – well, natural fire caused by lightning. I forget what it was. But the fire went through the area and burned down a lot of the old growth, and for the past couple of years, just a lot of blueberries. I went picking, too, so I know this firsthand. This is… we picked wild blueberries, and this was caused by the burning of the old brush and new vegetation, blueberries coming up because of the natural fire.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And it's fascinating to hear that even though there weren't blueberries there, that you knew there would be at some point because…
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
[00:54:37 A slide appears on screen: Plants and Indigenous Peoples: Wild Rice.]
Dr. Myrle Ballard: This is Whiteshell area. Part of our activities, too, we used to go wild rice picking every fall, ever since as far as I can remember. And then we would go in a canoe. I started picking at a very young age, I was a child (laughs) and I learned as part of my upbringing. So, I guess I'll ask you all, what do you think is the relationship between wild rice picking and… what's the importance of wild rice picking and the ecosystem?
Dr. Jordan Hollman: You know, I… thinking clearing the land partly. Obviously, you pick it because you need it, but from the land's perspective, maybe clearing the land, maybe you're helping spread seeds, but I don't know. I'm guessing. What is it?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. Okay, so we go in canoes, and the water is very shallow, it's not land; it grows in water.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Okay.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. It grows in water; it doesn't grow on land. So that's one round I would give you! (laughs)
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Wow.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: So we go, we pick the rice in the fall when it's ready for harvest. And you can see the one on the left side. It's ready for harvest. You can see the rice grains are brown. And when you go into the waters, you go in a canoe, and there's always a person in the front steers the canoe, and the person in the back is the one picking. So it's a process where the rice is high, probably about… it grows from the water, probably about six feet, eight feet. So you go into those rice fields, I guess you call them, they're in the water, and you go there by canoe and you pick, you get pick, hit, pick it. And we used to sell that rice. But what happens, too, is we're helping the rice regenerate because it doesn't all fall into the canoe; a lot of it falls over and it grows back.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Okay. So, I least got a little bit right. With the seeds…
Dr. Myrle Ballard: You're a little right, yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: One mark.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Okay.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. And this activity changed because of there's a lot of other mechanical boats now going over the rice and it's destroying the fields, so, yeah.
[00:57:13 A slide appears on screen: Case Study: Using Anishinaabemowin for biodiversity monitoring – Lake Winnipeg watershed.]
And do we have time to talk about a little bit of my research? So, my research that I'm doing is looking at the Lake Winnipeg watershed and identifying the Indigenous names that are used along the watershed. So, because Indigenous names, they have the original meaning of what the places were named based on their role in the ecosystem by Indigenous people.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: So, is the name almost, if it's telling you what the area was like in the past? So, it's baseline condition, sort of?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, what it was, baseline. Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Okay.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. That's why it's important that the name identifies the baseline, the baseline condition of the original naming (inaudible).
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And then I'm just thinking as someone who was in research, if you know there's a baseline condition and you know there's a change, then you can find opportunities to perform studies, and then…
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: … Maybe… Am I weaving, or am I off-base (inaudible)?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, you're starting to weave.
(Both laugh)
Dr. Myrle Ballard: A bridging is… the bridging will be working with Indigenous people along the way there, working with them. They're going to be telling us what the original names were, and they're going to tell us the way the conditions were before. And we, as Western, we'll go in there with our tools, little tools and gadgets, identifying, sampling and taking back to labs and confirming with Indigenous people. Back and forth.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, okay. That's… yeah. No, I'm glad you stopped to do that because that helps bring that picture together, how do you put it all together.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. Now you're starting to understand. Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, yeah. And your question before, about if you have time, I think we have about 30 minutes left, so for however many slides you've got.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Okay. So I think we're about halfway there, but I'm going to go faster now.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. Okay.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Okay. So, this is just some of the concepts of Three-Eyed Seeing, our relations, Indigenous science and Western science. I already talked about these, so let's go over them.
[00:59:28 A 2024 CBC News article titled "Southern Chiefs ask courts to give Lake Winnipeg Charter rights to life, liberty, security" is shown.]
So, I'm going back to Three-Eyed Seeing and giving a voice to our relations. There's a Southern Chiefs organization in Manitoba is challenging Manitoba Hydro and the provincial government over its negligence of Lake Winnipeg. So, it's speaking on behalf of Lake Winnipeg because we have to give Lake Winnipeg a voice. We have to ask Lake Winnipeg, what is it that you want? What is wrong with you? What can we do to help you? And this is what it's about, Three-Eyed Seeing, giving a voice to the water, asking it what it wants, what it needs help with.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: And I love that. Who speaks for the lake?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: And Lake Winnipeg, if you see Lake Winnipeg – is there a pointer on here?
Dr. Jordan Hollman: No.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Well, anyways, Lake Winnipeg is made of the north… made up of the North Basin and the South Basin, and then it has a narrow part too where it connects. And this is people, of the way they describe the lake and they describe it using the body, so the North Basin and the South Basin are linked by the narrow part which they call the kidney of the lake. And you know what a kidney does, right?
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. It cleans toxins.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. It cleans toxins, and that's the same as that. And if you interfere with that narrows part, you're basically interfering with the cleansing process of the lake.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Oh, okay.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. And Lake Winnipeg, the South Basin is really… it's very contaminated.
[01:01:30 A slide appears on screen: Indigenous Stewardship of Water and Our Relations. Granting legal rights to bodies of water is part of Indigenous-led efforts to protect them. Indigenous Peoples have depended on waterways as a major highway, food source, and natural pharmacy for centuries. Water has been threatened by industry and hydroelectric dam development, the negative environment and social effects of which often outweigh any renewable energy benefits. Indigenous-led conservation and protection of the environment yield results. Indigenous Peoples are the first responders of the AKI land and water. They are the first to know when something is wrong.]
There's days during the summer where you can't swim because there's high algae levels and it's just it's very toxic. Hot days, warm.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And I'm wondering as… because I know Lake Winnipeg is a priority, is how to, how do we bring in some of that Indigenous knowledge where we're not at a good place, but we need to heal? Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. So, we have to ask the waters, what does the water want? We can't make decisions anymore, what we think, what we think is right. The water has to tell us what it wants.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Okay.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: And there's a few other examples around the world, where water is given a legal personhood, where it has rights. And being Indigenous people, Indigenous stewards of the lands, Indigenous stewards of our nations, we have to speak up for these waters, for these lands.
[01:02:35 A slide appears on screen: Magpie River. Amazon River. Whanganui River. A swoosh of raven wings echoes in the crisp air. Beaver claws scratch against the rocks on the shoreline. The ice blockade upriver groans and creaks against the rising waters. It's springtime at the Magpie River. An image of the Magpie River is shown. The image is labelled (Photo: CBC, 2024).]
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Some examples, for example, Quebec, Magpie River, the Cree were the ones that initiated that. And the Amazon River and the Wanganui in New Zealand too, it was the Indigenous peoples and the Māori people who brought the Wanganui River for legal personhood. And now this is a really good description, at the bottom there, of the Magpie River. "A swoosh of raven wings echoes in the crisp air. Beaver claw scratch against the rocks on the shoreline. The ice blockade upriver groans and creaks against the rising waters. It's springtime at the Magpie River."
It just gives you a sense of the life of the river, how it groans and croaks, the way it's coming to life. Waking up, when you wake up, sometimes you groan and creek your body (inaudible)
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, your back hurts and…
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, your back hurts. Yeah, that's the same thing I said. That description there, you can just sense the life of the waters, of the rapids.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
[01:03:46 A slide appears on screen: Our Relations.]
Dr. Myrle Ballard: This is my community of Lake St. Martin. And if you look at the land, a lot of the tree stands in their area are dead. And the way the elders and knowledge holders describe that, is the water table, or the ground table is coming up because Lake St. Martin, it's kind of like a holding tank between Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg. It's connected by two rivers, lake… the Fairford River and the Dauphin River. The Fairford River is from Lake Manitoba going into Lake St. Martin, then Lake St. Martin and Dauphin River into Lake Manitoba-… Lake Winnipeg. So it's a holding tank. And the fish, as well, they're part of the ecosystem. So the water table, because of the constant flooding from the sixties, from the Fairford down and Manitoba Hydro on Lake Winnipeg, the water doesn't have anywhere to go and it's rising. And there's a lot of these stands in the area where they're just dead tree stands.
And this picture on the right is from a fisher on Lake Winnipeg from the algae, and the algae does a lot of damage to the fish, if there's too much algae. And we have an Indigenous word for algae, meaning it's part of the ecosystem, but too much of everything and it destroys.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, it's not good.
[01:05:32 A slide appears on screen: Biodiversity Disrupter: Lake St. Martin Outlet Channel.]
This was… I don't think it's in the previous picture, that was constructed to divert the flooding waters on Lake St. Martin in 2011. And I know it's a channel that goes into Lake Winnipeg. And it did a lot of damage, the construction, with the ground water in Dauphin River as well, and trying to remediate the damage that was done caused even more damage.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: They're trying to build another of the channel on the south shore of Lake St. Martin, the extreme south point of Lake St. Martin where they want to connect a channel from the south shore of Lake St. Martin with Lake Manitoba. And doing that, it's going to, it's going to destroy the other habitats of our relations because that's where… that's a shallow water along there, and a lot of the birds and the waterfowl go there. That's where they live. That's where they spend their summers, that's where they breed. Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: I do have a question bubbling up in me here, is the Indigenous science perspective, is it always going to be to keep the land how it is? Or are there times where man-made changes or manmade diversions might be positive, or is it always the preference to let the land stay in its more natural state?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: The preference is natural because maybe… what are examples of man-made changes that are positive?
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, well, I think the question is we do, we make changes to work around ourselves.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: If there's the city and we put it there – and this happens all the time, people want to live near the water and they build in the flood zone.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: And then now you're trying to fix it after the fact, where maybe we just shouldn't have built in the flood zone. And so it's tough, because positive, not positive. I think the people living in the flood zone would probably think it was a positive if you stop their flooding, but then there's obviously there's a much bigger picture than that.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, a bigger picture.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: So, it's perspectives, right.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. Who does it work for?
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
Dr. Myle Ballard: If you want to build your house along the river, because that's ideal place where waterfront properties are expensive. But when it comes to flood, that is if your house is flooded, the insurance companies have to pay out. So, if there's a flood coming because of climate change, waters, et cetera, waters are diverted and then you start building these man-made control structures in order to save these million-dollar cottages, but somewhere along the way, someone suffers.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. Or the land changes, and then maybe…
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: … Maybe because it's so complex, you don't know how it's going to change, exactly, all of it.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
[01:09:03 A photo of fisherman in a river is shown.]
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. So, we're getting to the end of my presentation here. So, like I said, the research that I do involves all three lenses, Western lens, and working very closely with the elders and knowledge keepers because they identify where these sites are, where there's trouble spots.
[01:09:30 A slide appears on screen: Natural Law Interrupted. Our Relations: The land weeps… "When the land is traumatized, the people will feel its trauma and be traumatized. Two photos of Lake St. Martin in 2011 are shown.]
And when land is interrupted, when land is destroyed, the land weeps. And when the land is traumatized, it affects us. It's the people who feel that trauma and are traumatized. And it's a struggle. It's holistic. If you have damaged something, then something else is going to be… it's going to be damaged as well.
The Elders talk about the fish. They know about the fish patterns, the habit, the habitat, water flows, then they know when water flows are not normal, when water flow… the normal flow of water goes a certain way, when the water flows backward. They know all of this, this is why the Indigenous science is so important, because they know when things happen, when… Yeah. And when there's a trouble on the land that they are the first responders and they alert Western scientists and then they start working together.
[01:10:38 A slide appears on screen: Disruption of Natural Law. Fish patterns, habitats, water flow and currents. "Fish in spring spots are now in fall spots." "Caught one box of fish out of ten nets." (Knowledge Holders 2016)]
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And I'm wondering when you talk about the knowledge of how things were and where those places are and… but when I hear about some of the damage that some of the land… or it's changed and I also hear that Indigenous science is not in the past, it's new and living, how does Indigenous science handle things? Let's say an area is healing and it's becoming restored, but maybe it doesn't go back to how it was once; maybe there's a new normal. Like how does Indigenous science take in new information like that?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. Well, this is science. One thing about Indigenous peoples, they have that ability to adapt. And when changes occur beyond their control, they have that ability to adapt. And they… it's part of their learning process and it's part of their observations. Life goes on.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: But I shouldn't say that, because when something is destroyed, it also destroys livelihoods, it destroys a way of life. Life goes on, maybe in a different direction, but it's like that.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah. And the different direction may be positive or negative.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, yeah. Or both.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: (Inaudible)
[01:12:12 A slide appears on screen: Indigenous Science and Western Science. Images of knowledge holders are shown.]
So, yeah. So, this is working with knowledge holders, I combined the oral history, the oral tradition, just a lot of ground truthing. I said, and I use modern equipment, modern technology, I use a lot of drones, a lot of satellite imagery, and comparing what is said by the knowledge holders to what's out there, comparing, it's always back and forth.
[01:12:47 A slide appears on screen: Summary: Two-Eyed Seeing. Three-Eyed Seeing. Listening to Each Other for Better Informed Decision-Making. Research from Policy to Action.]
And that's it!
[01:12:50 A slide appears on screen: Miigwech. Questions? An image of fishermen on a boat waving is shown.]
Yeah, so I'm both an Indigenous scientist and a Western scientist, I combine both knowledge systems.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. No, it's such a fascinating perspective. And coming out and stepping out of that community setting into the opposite, in academia and government where everything is so big and so rigid. I'm just curious, when you came into government, and it was that big structure and you were trying to build the Indigenous science division, what do you think the biggest challenges were, or maybe still are, that people should focus on?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: There's a lot of challenges. I think a part of it is changing people's mindsets is a big thing, it's the biggest challenge. Because when you go to school, right from the moment we enter into grade school, we're taught western, a western way of thinking, of processing information, and that way of thinking is not necessarily part of who we are as Canadians. That way of thinking that came from Westerners, that came from different parts of the world, they brought their knowledge with them and imposed. And that's how we're trained to think. We are trained a specific way of learning, and I think that's part of the challenge, changing these mindsets where they came from. And I think it's, a part of it is that decolonizing these mindsets, because decolonizing was a long way. It's decolonizing the way we're taught, the way of thinking. It's decolonizing these teachings that were brought on from the first explorers that came to the new world, they called it. It wasn't new. It wasn't new, we were here already. My ancestors were here!
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: And it's based on those notes, letters that were written back to their kings and queens. The way they describe us, my ancestors who lived here, as savages who don't know anything. Meanwhile, we already had our own knowledge, our own Indigenous science in place way before Western science was introduced here.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, and I don't envy the challenge that you're coming in, because you're coming into these spaces that have their own ways of thinking. And I know, you could probably even hear me talking today that I try to fit the information you give me into that way of thinking, because that's how I've been trained to think since I was a child. Right. And that's… yeah, that's quite a challenge that you've taken on, and slowly making progress, hopefully.
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yes. And also, if you think of ECCC, ECCC is probably 80% Western scientists who work there, like yourself, you are Western, you're a Western trained scientist. And where did you get your education from? In the Western… in a Western-trained institutions where you're taught Western science. And you're probably taught that your way of learning is the only way, that it's above Indigenous science. And it is changing these mindsets, changing the terms that are used is part of the challenge.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. And what would you say to someone who, say, is in my position and does… I'm at Environment Canada, I do scientific work, environmental work, and I listen to this and I say, that's really interesting, maybe I should try to incorporate this or maybe I should try to… Is the start just simply mindset shifting, or is it… is there something tangible you think people could start with then grab on to begin?
Dr. Myrle Ballard: Yeah, I think… I think it's a realization that Western science is not the…end-all. Indigenous science. But slowly, government even national, international, they are starting to recognize the importance of Indigenous science, and they're starting to include it in a lot of the reports and the policy work that's out there.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah, and it's going to be really interesting to see where the Indigenous science division goes now that you've, I guess, gone back to academia to focus on your research and see how is this taken and how is it utilized. Yeah. And maybe that's… I wonder sometimes is that a challenge for the top-down, because that's usually how change happens in big structures, but that's a western way of thinking. And if Indigenous science is community-based, I don't know, maybe the way is bottom-up. I don't know, I don't know the answers, but I've got a lot to think about after today. And I challenge whoever is listening to, even if there's nothing tangible you can do, just consider it and think about other perspectives and think about how other people are thinking about things, because it's so fundamentally different. Trying to think, trying to get myself to the way you think, it's literally a challenge, right? Yeah.
Dr Myrle Ballard: Well, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed this conversation.
Dr. Jordan Hollman: Yeah. Yeah, and so that, I think that concludes our day's event. Thank you so much, Dr. Ballard. This was a really great conversation to me. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope that the people watching us, I hope you've got a chance to enjoy it as well, maybe get something interesting out of it, maybe get some questions out of it, get something different about the way you think about things. And your feedback is really important to us, so I'd invite anyone watching to complete the electronic evaluation that you're going to get in the next few days regarding this presentation. And the School has more events to offer. I would encourage you to visit their website, keep yourself up to date and register for any future learning opportunities that are of interest to you. So again, thank you so much for attending. Thank you so much. Dr. Ballard, this was wonderful. And yeah, have a great day. Thanks.
Dr Myrle Ballard: Miigwech.
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